Some thoughts on Oranje…

Hey!

I think I’m not treating this blog as it deserves… just now I appeared. Well, I’m just a lazy guy, try to understand…

Well, I watched the game (also on ESPN). Oranje is not doing astonishingly, but the opponents are very weak. Very, very weak. I must confess Scotland disappointed me a lot.

But that’s not Netherlands problem. The team is doing its job. And it’s doing properly. Just a matter of time. That’s win Macedonia on Wednesday and Oranje WILL ALREADY BE at WC.

Then, Bert should use this time to set the problems. The defense is one of them, but, as we watched, it’s not unsolutionable. Ooijer and Mathijsen were good yesterday. Steks really needs some time playing at club football, but he’s talented and I do hope he finds his way. And Van der Wiel… are we finding the solution at RB?

Midfield and attack… well, just Spain can compare themselves to Oranje in the quantity of talents. Raf, Wes, Dirk, MvB, Nigel, Robben, Hunter (how he improved!), Robin (doing greatly!)… a sweet problem.

In my opinion, 4-2-3-1 is not rubbish. It’s just one of the hypothetical systems. Well, I’d build up the team on 4-4-2:

Steks
VdWiel-Ooijer-Mathijsen-Gio (Braafheid)
Mark-Wes (by now)-Raf-Dirk
Hunter-Robin

It could be transformed into a 4-3-3, with Robben replacing Rafael and Van Persie making the nº 10 spot. But 4-2-3-1 is absolutely not useless. It can be useful sometimes.

I don’t know… let’s wait. But I’m also optimistic to next year.

P.S.: My Brazil… it made me sick against Ecuador. Ronaldinho is just a shadow of what he was five/four years ago. Lucio/Luisao were pitiful. Just Julio Cesar was great. The best world goalie by now.

I am happy vd vaart is not starting. Nothing against the guy, but he’s been the most overrated Dutch international for a long time–small, and never much of a factor.

I guess by now we all realize how difficult it is for a coach to choose from so many talented footballers.Not an easy job, think Bert has done well by sticking to his formula of playing the “in form” players in positions they are suited to at club level and not playing someone like Raf at left wing or Seedorf at Right wing.Reports show Wesley is very angry and as all players and Bert say ” Of course! and so he should be !”

Posted from  Singapore

I’ve seen Zuiverloon and Donk mentioned as possible Oranje players a few times on here and just want to point out that right now they’re a million miles from that orange shirt. West Brom’s defence has been terrible this season – giving away free headers all over the place. I really liked Zuiverloon before, but as long as he’s part of that shambles NO WAY!

I really think, if you’re going to play Kuyt on the right side then two guys like Van Bommel and De Jong are overkill. Though I’d like to see that dispicable little turncoat Bommel dropped for good and Sneijder come in his place, I think it’s unlikely. So, I’d say De Jong is expendable.

Totally disagree with the van Bommel at centre back though – has he ever played there much? The guy never strikes me as very tall, and I wouldn’t fancy him winning enough aerially. There’s too much experimental stuff talked about on this blog (Kuyt at right back etc.) – this sort of stuff just won’t work if it’s not done at the player’s club as well. If Van Bommel plays, keep him in midfield.

As for Van der Vaart being dropped – thank goodness – the guy’s never been as good as when he first broke into the Oranje set up (Euro 2004?). He’s slower now and doesn’t contribute enough creatively or defensively. Good to have on the bench, but shouldn’t be in with a shout of starting, I’d rather have Schaars or Affelay.

Posted from  Japan

@jan why you missed David mendes da silva?
our current four best holding mids are
De jong
Schaars
VanBommel
Da silva
so why you opt de saaw over da silva?,In AZ last game they missed David mendes heavily.
Taking Vanbommel into diffence is very very risky?But we can gamble in some games.

Posted from  India

Van Bommel played a great game he did well with his defensive tasks but also contributed a lot in attack.

I like Van der Vaart but he hasn’t done much with the national team and now players like Sneijder, Robben, Persie, Afellay, Babel are doing much better so he has to prove he can be ahead of them or else he’ll keep warming the bench.

@Rob – Agree with the pooor state of WBA defence and looks like those 2 may have to wait a long while. Also with Kuyt you do have an overkill. Think they can now just use 1 DM against Macedonia.
As for height. At the moment the tallest player on Sat was RvP 1.88 followed by Bommel 1.87 and then Ooier 1.85.
Of course not counting Steks at 2m. Engelaar is 2m+ but think he had his last game for Holland. Vlaar is 1.89 and Donk is 1.92.

Posted from  Singapore

Playing Vanbommel as center back is very very risky.definitly it will help the buildup play. but i can see some silly mistakes in bigstage matches.Personally i belive schaars and da silva are unlucky.Is de saaw is above Mendes da silva?no way.Schaars is quicker than vanbommel.if we play van bommel back then we should select 3hardcore diffenders,Then i prefer
Bula-Mathijenson-Bouma
Van bommel
Dejong-Schaars
Roban-VanPersie-Znijder
Hunter
if we play with mendes da silva instead of Dejong we can see more creative buildup from the back,this has good lungs also like de jong.(i am de jong fan because of he is useful ingradient of a winning team)

Posted from  India

@all guys if we want to win against barzil/argentina we have to attack from the very first second of the game and minmum we need to score two in first half.We can play some diffenceive game aginst underdogs like scotland,Switzerland etc

Posted from  India

I want to add another minimal observation: We have No Penalty takers. I was not sure why Kuyt was chosen as the leading penalty taker among all the players on the pitch because I don’t think he is the best at it. Even more frightening was how weak his shot was. True he sent the goalkeeper on the wrong side, but had the goalkeeper guessed the correct side(Casillas,Buffon…) he would have absolutely stopped the ball from going in b/c the ball was not far up into the corner (the way Gerrard,Zidane,Del Piero,Totti…) would have taken the penalty.
So maybe the coach should have our top 7 penalty takers lined up, and make sure they practice at taking them…b/c I dont want to see another Euro 2000 or the like from ever happening again, and against the top teams in the late rounds thats almost a certainty.

Posted from  United States

Please, there was very little wrong with Kuyt’s penalty at all. Watch his body move the wrong way just before he takes it and takes the goalie with him. I don’t care if he just taps the ball, there is no way in hell the keeper saves it.

I am sure they will work on those skills. They have a year and a half to do it. As opposed to a certain Van Basten who seemed to ignore practicing penalties completely. And look what he has done to Stekel? They guy has no clue. JC will have him removed, just watch. Nobody works behind the scenes like JC.

@vanbasten.Agree on kuyt but in this current generation we have better penalty takers than the old generation.In my opinion our current best penalty takers are
Nestlrooy
Vanpersie
Znijder
Vaart
hetinga/Roban/schaars?

Posted from  India

@Tiju: I don’t think AZ missed Mendes Da Silva too much. I think they missed De Zeeuw who was suspended. I do admit that I did forget him in my little line up though…

I like Schaars better than Van Bommel: Schaars is left footed (De Jong and Bommel are right footed and it does slow down build up) and Schaars sees the game better. Much better.

Against Scotland, we played with four defenders against 1 single Scot and two holding midfielders! Not necessary.

With Bommel at the back, we still have three real defenders taking care of the maximum two strikers any opponent will play. And one holding mid, that should be more than enough!

As for penalties: Hunter, Sneijder, Van Persie, Kuyt, Mathijsen, Gio, Bommel…all pretty good. And yes, Kuyt did send the goalie into the right corner. Just an awesome penalty in my book.

@Finn: do you think JC will remove Marco at Ajax? Big call, my friend

@ carlos, i think you’ve got the heights mixed up cause Stekelenburg is 1.94 , Engelaar 1.96, Ooijer I thought 1.88, you had Vlaar correct, he’s 1,89, besides them tallest are Luirink at 1.88, Kees Luijckx was 1.90 i thought, Donk indeed 1.92, V.Bommel 1.87, don’t know if V.Persie is 1.88, i thought he was like 1.85

About Donk and Zuiverloon, Zuiverloon had a impressive start of the season, but as WBA started to suck more, his level plummeted with it. Donk was heavily criticised, and hasn’t been playing that much, ironically made a strong impression against Man.United though. But both still only 22, so they have all the possibilities of developing further. I didn’t say they belong in the squad right now.

Posted from  Netherlands

But, why VdV was very good when he played for Hamburg SV. He lead the team to play in the CL. I think VdV is not a fast player, so he should move to Italy, instead of England (if he wants to leave Madrid).

Posted from  Indonesia

Maybe, VdV is not ready to become a world class player. There are a lot of pressure he cannot handle.

Posted from  Indonesia

@Van Basten – we don’t have a lot of worries for penalties, we have lots of players who can take a good penalty, as Jan listed. Add to that list Robben who is also good (scored the winning penalty against Sweden in 2004, remember?).
As for Kuyt’s penalty, I wouldn’t worry about the shot being weak if he sends the keeper the wrong way. There’s a player on Japan’s national team, Endo, who takes penalties for them. Every time he just kind of saunters up to the ball, sends the keeper the wrong way and then just rolls the ball into the other side of the net. The shot in the end is always super weak, more like a pass, but it doesn’t matter because the keeper has already dived the other way. I haven’t seen a goalie save him yet.

Posted from  Canada

Interesting proposition with Van Bommel dropping back to central defense, but NO THANKS! Van Bommel and De Jong are hitting the right note and I wouldn’t change a bit. In fact, they need to gain more understanding playing together. Van Bommel as a defender would be disaster for many reasons, one of which is his tendency pushing and shoveling recklessly. It will cost Oranje, trust me on this! Besides, Van Bommel loves to contribute in offense, and rightly so, because his vision is as good, if not better, than his teammates. I can picture he would leave his spot in attack build up and before you know it, the defense will sliced wide open.

The formation against Scotland is very close to solid. Two things I would change if I were Bert van Marwijk. First, let’s find a different partner for Mathijsen at CD. Ooijer is getting old and slower, I can easily see his getting murdered against a fast striker. My vote would go to Boulahrouz. He is by far Holland’s best man-marker at the moment, and his fearless mentality is what Oranje needs the most. Having said that, I’d love to see him getting regular playing times in Bundesliga. Other option would be Marcellis. He’s the future, so why don’t give him chance to prove his worth? The second aspect I would change is the right side of midfielder. As much as I like Kuijt, I don’t think he’s the solution. We need somebody with creativity and imagination, and a good crosser. I would propose Sneijder inserted in this position. That’s his “official” post at Real Madrid- but if you’re a Madridista, you know it as well as I do that Sneijder slides down to the center of the park a lot and dominates the game with his crisp passing. He’s the true “number 10″ so-to-speak. This will free up Van Persie, so he can concentrate to support Jan Huntelaar as a second striker.

========================Stekelenburg=====================

vd Wiel==============Boulahrouz=====Mathijsen=========Gio

===============de Jong=============Van Bommel===========

Sneijder==========================================Robben

=========================van Persie======================

=========================Huntelaar=======================

Posted from  United States

@3ric – Sneijder plays on the left at Real, Robben plays on the right.

Posted from  Canada

@Caleb: Robben/Sneijder are interchangeable though. Robben switches flank always, looking for holes and creating confusion to the opponent’s tactics. Sneijder operates from the central midfield. The point I am trying to make is that, who cares what the formation on paper look like. Let Robben exploit the weakest of two wing defenders and have Sneijder dictates the game from central. This is a better system than having Kuijt sitting on the right midfield. I admire Kuijt’s work ethic to defense, but let’s be honest, when Van der Wiel gets comfortable, there is no need to add layer in front of him because he has the quickness to make up the ground. Besides, there’s the reason why 2 DM’s are in the system to begin with: to be the first line of defense when opponent counter-attacks. As final point, without Sneijder controlling, there would extra burden for Van Bommel to distribute the ball forward and/or Van Persie/Huntelaar to pick up the ball from deep.

Posted from  United States

3ric – excellent analysis…perhaps you can see why a coach has so many dilemmas because apart from you having great ideas, he has 4-5 close associates that discuss things with him, his senior players and 16million dutch coaches at home. No enviable task – so many great ideas/actions can be adopted from this blog alone. We are very lucky to have this talent. Read the Oranje B article and see what the B team players say about trying to get in. But then never give up. How many of us would have picked vdWiel at RB 1 month ago ? Lets see more “fighting for places” by showing us who is the best ! Didn’t he play in the Oranje B at the beginning too ?

Posted from  Singapore

There’s a cool interview with Bert coming up (in a couple of hours). You can mine more insights about him, the way he works and the way he thinks. I like him more and more….