Kuyt annoyed with disappointing quality of Oranje

@Juan Carlos, dominated the other teams, I don’t count a 0-0 to Italy, a last minute winner against Sweden, a 1-0 win to Germany, and a 2-1 win against lowly Greece as dominating. You dominated Russia, WE dominated the World Cup finalists.

Posted from  Canada

Not only is the monkey still on their back, the monkey is even typing their messages …

In all honesty, I welcome Juan Carlos on our blog. He livens things up a bit, is some sort of comic relief and invites us all to respond. Great! He reminds of Ishmael, that bloke from Lebanon who thought Kees Kist was Holland’s best striker ever. Or was it Dick Nanninga?

Whatever…

Some quick remarks here:

1 De Haan has lost it. Clearly. And to think that some of us wanted him as team manager for the big boys… Pfffeww… It’s sad we didn’t make it. A disgrace, really. Foppe failed. And needs to go.

2.Dirk Kuyt as right back was coined by…me… some months ago, in the run up to the EC . So, clearly, I like this idea, in particular against “lesser” teams. Let’s try this one out. His workmanship and mentality will compensate his lack of experience. Any better options?
Heitinga can move to the center, Ooijer can stay in Newcastle! (I know, Blackburn….).

3. Spain didn’t dominate Holland at the EC . The lucky bastards didn’t get to play us. I think Spain deserved the win, actually. A finals Oranje – Spain would have been grand.

4. It’s a probility and possibility for every team that needs to qualify that they won’t. I mean, that’s the whole point of qualifications, isn’t it? A bit of a silly thing to use as a pay off in a post.
I mean: “France has the possibility and probability that they won’t qualify…” How smart does that make me look? And you can delete “france” and add any other nation’s name.

I’ll go into JC’s post earlier on our football legacy. I read that just before going to bed and I really had a good sleep on that comment. Ready for a spicey response soon, hahahahahaaaa

Please visit often JC!

JC, why all this negativity and hatred towards Holland, when they’re almost comparable to the Spanish side:

both want to play good football

both are known as underachievers

there’s never been any animosity between our nations (in football, that is) other than the Malta bribery in the 1980s. We don’t have that Holland – Germany thing, or the England – Argentina thing, do we?

If you win a tournament and you feel you have to rub it in in the faces of the losers, doesn’t that make you the Biggest Loser of all?

You didn’t answer the question

Posted from  Canada

Juan Carlos, your logic says that since spain trashed russia and russia beat the netherlands, then spain would have beat oranje (6-0 according to you, so eventhough you accuse marc of playing god, you apparently do the same thing). The same logic also says that since Oranje beat the italians 3-0, then spain should have obliterated the italians in the quarterfinals, but that is not how i would describe that 0-0 stalemate. listen, i like the spanish team, not as much as the dutch team ofcourse, but like Jan said, both aspire to play nice football and there is no real rivalry between our teams, so why do you have to give spanish fans a bad image by putting down the Dutch for no apparent reason?

Posted from  Canada

back on topic,

Kuijt would add value to most teams, he may not have the most skills but he can play smart and is undoubtedly the hardest worker on the team. He provides a good example for others (especially in oranje where we need to cultivate more of a winning mentality) and i’d like to see him in the starting XI, and if that happens to be at RB, then great (we’ll just have to give Jan a pat on the back for calling that one prior to the EC).

Posted from  Canada

@ Marlon: Probability and possibility are not “about the same thing”. This is why United States needs to invest in education. Other countries have surpassed us in science and mathematics, and this is just another clear example how stupid people have become. Embarrassing.

@ Kuyt: Don’t bitch about your playing time. Just shut up and play. You will get rewarded if you do well.

@Jan
Yes, it is your great idea to use Kuyt as right back. It reminds me of that idea when reading this article. As many friends mentioned above, Dirk has good mentality, can run, defense and sccccccore. Bert could give him some chances to be the starting XI during the qualifying games.

@goose
Thanks for your support! Oranje needs a runner. Kuyt can do a favor.
Speaking of Gio, clubs like Barca, Arsenal…use him as a midfielder. But if I recall correctly, Frank Rijkaard let him be a left fullback in EC2000.

Juan carlos and others are obviously mistaken about the difference between probability and possibility. In the context that you place them Juan they don’t make sense. If something is a possible outcome (a possibility) then it must, by definition, have a probability attached to it. So to say that something is a possibility without any probability is false.

So, I think that you meant to say: “It is not PROBABLE but POSSIBLE THAT HOLLAND MIGHT NOT QUALIFY FOR 2010″. So, to flesh it out, you think that the Dutch have a reasonable chance to qualify, but that there is a slight chance that they may not? (If not, then your sentence is far from making sense.)

Note: Obviously probable and probability have two completely seperate meanings; probable meaning more than likely.

Also Mark, you are mistaken buddy. Probability doesn’t mean that ‘the chances are well over 50%.’ Probability is the likelihood or chance that something is the case or will occur. Again, i think that you mean probable, which is commonly used to mean ‘with greater than or equal to a 50% chance’. Also, possibility does not mean that the chances are ‘around 50%, maybe even’. Possibility is a mathematical formula which indicates how likely something is to occur. I don’t know what you were trying to say with that one.

Shit i feel like a nerd, but you should have learned this stuff in general mathematics year 7 if you studied it.

So to sum up, probability and possibility do mean virtually the same thing. Probability is a mathematical concept used to calculate the possibility of something happening. So, probabilty is the end result of calculating possibility. Can you now see that they are very closely related….. You can’t have one without the other.

Kuyt should be a starter: he is a good, strong and underrated player. He has a great attitude and can run all day. He played well against Italy in the EC, set up the first goal. Also, van Basten was foolish to take him out against Russia–he is the fittest player on the squad and after the loss van basten complained that his players were not sufficiently fit!

Posted from  United States

Kuyt can be in the starting 11 and no worries about that, the problem is that everyone likes fantasy players like Vaart, Sneijder, Persie, Robben, Babel instead of an efficient player who has proved himself many times at Liverpool. I don’t think it’s a good idea to play Kuyt as a right back because he will feel humilliated, he has already said he prefers to be the center forward and then play him on that position it’d be an insult.

I’ve been reading all this comments and I have laughed to tears!!!.

@Juan Carlos: I was happy when Spain won the EC because as Holland they are a team that likes playing attacking football and I’m form Mexico so we have some similarities.
I believe you are a Cataluña fan and you are jealous because you guys lost the last league against the Orange Madrid, aren’t you!!!.

Holland hasn’t been lucky. 2 WC finals and both against the hosts haha, a last minute shot on the bar against Argentina in 1978, remember?.
Spain won this EC and they deserve all our respect because they knew how to play at the most important moments, congratulations to the Spanish.
But Juan Carlos you can not compare Holland’s and Spain’s history!!!. Holland has much more history than Spain!!!. 2 WC finals, 1 EC championship and many semi-finals and please let’s not talk about clubs because we are far superior to the Spanish. Madrid has won many European cups but always the star of the team was a foreign player: Di Stefano, Zidane, Mijatovic, Hugo Sanchez etc…
In the other hand we had Dutch European champion clubs such as the Ajax of 70’s 1995, PSV 1998 and the stars were all Dutch. Remember the great Milan of the 90’s who were the stars?. Answer: Gullit, Basten and Rijkaard.
Why Spanish clubs always hire Dutch clubs!!!, my guess is that you all knoe we are better than you.

Congratulations for this great EC and you guys deserved it but come on Juan Carlos you know we are better than you by faaaaaaar and there’s no question about it haha!!!.

El dia que España juegue como la Holanda de los 70’s, de 1998 podré decir que son mejores.

I think there are too many good players in the Holland team. But only 11 players that can play football at the same time. What Holland needs is a very tough manager who can handle top players.

Posted from  Indonesia

Excellent thread this. Man, I did love that math explanation as well.

And thanks for the kudos on the Kuyt “solution”. I hope I didn’t come across as someone begging for recognition or something . I just wanted to say that I saw it as an option before the EC (who knows what would have happened eh?).

Miguel, excellent analysis on Dutch vs Spanish prizes.

I wanted to add, that if it were prizes I were after (to decide my loyalty) I’d probably support Germany. Prizes interest me, sure, but I prefer to be the number 2 in 1974 with the team everyone loves (incl Madrid coach Schuster!!) than being number 1 with a team that plays destructive anti-football. But that’s me…

OK we will see Juan Carlos. You won’t change your point of view because you love Spain and I won’t either because I love Holland so I understand your position, good luck you have a great team but if they adopt your attitude and arrogance they won’t have more success, I hope they don’t do this.

For every beginning there is an ending, and this comment is my exit. It has been of great interest to join with others in sharing thoughts about Netherlands football, with particularly high hopes for a quality EC ‘08. Now, the tone of the comments has changed, and I am not in agreement with the direction taken by the commentators. Many of the comments are simply foolish, with no apparent content or purpose. Unlike Jan, I see no useful purpose being served by any of juan corlos’ efforts, other than to instigate and irritate. As to judgments regarding de Haan, I believe they are simply wrong. Instead of replacing him, why not rebuild with new players, who have positive attitudes and are receptive to quality coaching. The U21 team now appears to be a victim of its own successes, and have forgotten the mission of Dutch football- quality presentation of entertaining soccer. My judgment is that many of these athletes do not give a damn about the sport, their coach, the Dutch philosphy of the sport and their place within the system. The recent jabber trying to explain this all away, blaming coaches, the KNVB, etc. serves not useful purpose.
I sincerely thank you all for letting me join your group and share my thoughts. I will always be a loyal fan of Dutch football, and hope the sport in the Netherlands will return to its true roots. There is nothing better than to watch the Dutch at their best. My best wishes to all of you, and thank you again for letting me participate in this experience.

Posted from  United States

@Bob; this blog has been going since 2006, the level has never dropped ,even when i was the only one writing (and ferenc)..
dont let this basterd scare you away..hell be gone…

your comments are always interesting (altough i almost never agree with you!) and would be missed by us all

i rather see you didnt quit

Posted from  Netherlands

Goose, thank you. You are the glue that holds the blog together and, together with the terrific offerings provided by Jan, will continue to be a resource of wonderful information about “our” Oranje. Best wishes.

Posted from  United States

@Bob,
I always enjoy your eloquent and insightful comments.

This blog will be a poorer place without your contributions and I would sincerely ask you to reconsider and stay on.

This is unquestionably the best forum on the web for Oranje soccer, the knowledge, the many angles, the colorful dialogue, the ups and downs, just like Oranje, and you are one of the contributors that have had a part of that. Don’t let a bad spell ruin the bigger picture.

I for one look forward to your next contribution.

Bob u r born with wisdom so be with us always
.Agree with your statement on de haan we should give chance to him with new players

Posted from  India

Woah…. I just read Bob’s comment and it hit me! Even if Oranje would have lost 10-0, Bob’s message would be the real clincher. Nop no no no NOOO…

We can’t have on of our best posters be driven away from this blog by aggressive slants and racism!! Bob, you hand the victory over to them! Don’t please….

I was late in reading the comments – time difference- so I deleted it late, maybe, but we here at the blog take a huge stand against this terrible thing that seems to come up every now and then! Please don’t let one (Emmanuel and Juan Calos was one and the same ignorant sod from Australia!!) make this blog suffer.

Your posts were always full of wisdom, insight and eloquence and most of learned a lot from what you wrote. I am positive.

As for de De Haan comments, I may be co-responsible coz I did write a critical comment on him here, but I do believe that his post tournament naming of names should be beyond him. He should have dealt with it there, not in the media after the tournament.

Anyway, I hope sincerely you’ll come back at your current decision….

Thank you, finnster01, tiju and Jan–your thoughtful comments were very meaningful to me, very unexpected and most appreciated. Two clarifications to my email of yesterday:

1. I was very disappointed, not by the comments of Emmanual or Juan Carlos,as I could not care less what they wrote, but by the support they were receiving from other bloggers. Goose wrote that I should not “let this bastard scare you away…” Are you kidding? I am an attorney and have been for 34 years. Nothing that happens on this blog will ever scare me away. Jan, in your blog of September 9, 5:06 pm, you wrote “I welcome Juan Carlos on our blog. He livens things up a bit, is some sort of comic relief and invites all of us to respond. Great!” My conclusion from your comments was that you welcomed the sarcastic, inflammatory and inane comments from this other blogger, found them lively and comical. Other bloggers continued to rise to the bait and engage this individual, sometimes with equally inane comments. This appeared to me to be a different attitude from what I had experienced during the past year since I came “on board” this little adventure.

2. I have completely and thoroughly enjoyed participating on this blog. I love the subject and have enjoyed the interchange among the many bloggers, each offering a particular perspective on our favorite subject of Dutch football. The development of individual personalities within the enthusiasm of the comments made me feel as part of an extended group of friends. It was that spirit and sense of comradeship that I believed was being lost with recent events already described.

Based on the kind words sent by several of you, I will reconsider and join in once in a while. I will, of course, continue to read it daily. Finnster is correct when he writes that this blog is the best forum on the web for Oranje soccer.

Posted from  United States

well see you around Bob

Posted from  Netherlands

Ouch Bob…. I read you loud and clear my friend… I didn’t realize what I was writing back then, I guess. I was trying to be cynical, or ironic or whatever you call it. I thought his remarks then were more amusing then anything else. When the whole Dutch-bashing and racism stuff entered the frame I was obviously less amused.

I apologize if you got the impression I (or this blog) was actually supporting this kind of negativity. I am not. Every now and then, a good debate on football matters is lively and fun and you get to the edge of semi-ridiculous generalizations and exaggerations and all, and it is so easy to cross that line.

I regret the line you quoted, in hindsight, although again it was my way of taking the mickey out on him. He was clearly serious in his posts, I tried to shrub it of as comic relief.

I do however, would like to implore on everyone not to take the bait if this happens again. If people come to our playground here to bully, don’t lower yourself to their standards, ok? Being a tad temperamental myself, I know how hard that can be, but as Bob (and others) have pointed out: it only creates a negative vibe. With all the negativity around us anyway, I feel we should try to endeavor to make this Netherlands Blog a safe haven for Fans of Dutch football…