De Guzman: heart for Oranje

well, all you dutch-canadians; im interested in how you guys feel…

Posted from  Netherlands

I don’t care too much. I know that if I was good enough to be able to choose between Holland and Canada, I would go play for Holland for sure. The state of the Canadian national team is terrible, like the article said, and there’s very little chance to actually play in any big tournaments if you’re playing for Canada.

Posted from  Canada

Once again the so-called soccer experts in Canada look like idiots. I’m sure, that given the opportunity, they would opt to play for Holland also.

Posted from  Canada

But the reason you are here is because you are Dutch supporters and friends. Probably a true blue Canuck would say “No Way I would stay Canadian” Of course it’s also a situational thing….surrounded by Dutch guys and watching the No1 sport and being in the centre of it has a different effect on you. When you’re 20 and impressionable you tend to go with the flow.
Holland beat Cameroon 2-0 by the way. Not a great match but to me Holland looked the more dangerous most of the time. No one really shone but Emanuelson made some difference when he came on. Goals were scored 5 mins from time by Babel n Makaay. Neither did too much before that. There appeared to be a big gap between midfield and forwards till Emmanuelson came on. First goal was slick passing though.

Posted from  Singapore

@goose

As a Dutch Canadian, I hoped he would have Canada. Nevertheless, I don’t knock him. What the National Post writer said was true. Donavon Baily came to Canada as a 13 year old, the only slight difference is that his family came as a immigrants first, he just happened to pick up track in high school, his world record Gold Medal run was awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H64_aSnwy3Q&feature=related

It would be as if Baily got a US track scholarship and decided to become an American.

Another analogy, What if Rik Smits wanted to play for US national basketball team.

Most Canadian Soccer fans are still a little sore, we lost Hargreaves to England as well.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14549

I just read on soccernet.com that van der Vaart has signed a deal with Real Madrid for 10million, and will meet with the team at the emirates cup.

Posted from  Canada

As a Canadian and Holland fan I understand why he would choose to leave. Maybe if more players from Canada advance to this level than people here will see Soccer as a viable sport and invest more time and money in the development of our youth. The way soccer is run in this nation is awful. I am proud to be a Canadian but I hold no grudges. Just a lingering sadness at the state of the game here.

This blog and the succeeding comments reflect what is not so clean and neat about national team football or other sports participation. Many players jump around, leaving their country of birth to play for a country in which they have settled or otherwise qualify as a citizen.
What does it mean to be a Netherlander or an American? Country of birth? Country of residence? Country of choice, just because? From my perspective, if you are a citizen-resident of a country, then that is the country where your eligibility should be determined. What I do not like, in this modern era of dual citizenships and easy residence qualification, is the ability of players to “go home” to their country of birth to play for that team, even though they do not reside there and have had virtually no contact for many years.
Being a resident-citizen generally means a permanent address and an extended period of residency in that country. It also means having legitimate employment, the ability to speak the language and the completion of a process to be legally recognized as a citizen of that country. It also means the acceptance of certain responsibilities toward that country, such as voting and the payment of taxes (hello, Mr. Hiddink!) As long as this issue remains confusing and unsettled, players will continue to move about and pick the best place for their participation.

Posted from  United States

Being Canadian and having Dutch heritage from both parents and having a father-in-law that emmigrated from Holland himself, I would’ve jumped at the chance to play for Holland over Canada in soccer anyday. That has always been my dream, to play in the World Cup for the Netherlands. Sure I am Canadian, but as everyone knows, the soccer here is absolute rubbish, and in Jonathan De Guzman’s time, the chances of Canada actually making a tournament of any merit is quite slim. To be able to put on the oranje like Cruyff, Bergkamp, Van Basten et all vs putting on the red and white that who wore? I hope he does well for them and I can be singing his praises on the Oranje first team in a couple of years from now!

Posted from  Canada

@Bob,

your posts are as eloquent and striking as always. This time you hit the nail in the head on a topic very dear to my heart. I was born a Norwegian, grew up in Norway, got educated in the UK, went back to Norway to work for a few years as a scientist after graduation. Proceeded to London and eventually landing in New York on April 8th, 1990. Have lived and worked here ever since. All my familiy live in a small fishing village of 12000 people.

Now, I am still a Norwegian citizen. Norway is one of those few countries that does not allow a second citizenship. If I were to become a US citizen, which I easily qualify for, I would technically have to give up my Norwegian one to stay within the bounds of the Norwegian law. What makes it even stranger is that I have a 12 year old daughter who was born and bred here (US) and of course is American. Yet, somehow I have never gotten myself to give up my Norwegian citizen ship.

I have no intention to move back to Norway or anywhere else anytime soon, yet I feel very strongly about not giving up that passport. I pay my US taxes on time, I am a law abiding citizen, have my green card which I had to qualify and apply for the hard way, speak the language, and try to do the best I can to help this country(US)in my own little ways to move forward.

My Norwegian citizenship will never be useful for anything, my daughter having a different passport is plain old weird, especially at certain Airports as we have to do different lines, yet I can not get myself to give that passport up. As a kid I ran track, and once I ran with the Norwegian flag on my chest, and that feeling of proudness will stay with me until I die.

The US have given me many things that I am forever grateful for. What I do not like, is people coming here (or elsewhere for that matter) and not make an honest effort to learn the language, the customs, get a job, contribute to society etc. We have them in the US, we have them in Norway, and I am sure we have them in Holland too. If you go visit someones house, your parents taught you to take off your shoes, your hat, be polite and abide with their rules as you are a guest. No diffrent if you should decide to move to another country. Does not mean you have to give up your culture (we have small, but very active, Norwegian society here in NY. I am sure there is a Dutch one too). But you should show respect for the country you decide to live in.

And yet, I am a die hard Oranje fan…Go figure…Blame it on Cruiff and Johan Neeskens.

Posted from  United States

@ finnster01
just get American citizenship. Norway is not part of the EU so the passport is useless. even if you drop your Norwegian nationality you will still be consider Norwegian in America. Me i was born in the states and even with an american nationality they(american) treat me like a second class citizen(foreigner).

Posted from  United States

IF he helps the orange win the olympic title then I am all for it.

Posted from  Canada

What a great debate and interesting stories. I have 2 passports Dutch and Australian, living in Singapore but I dont think I can add to anything that what my colleagues Bob n Finnster have said ( good stuff). I am sure if Holland play Australia I would wear my Orange shirt and Yellow Wallaby cap

Posted from  Singapore

Off topic
Can anyone tell me why Real pays E$27m for Wesley S. yet has trouble coughing up E$10m for Raf ?
Am a big fan of WS & will pay more for him than Raf but not 3 times more?
What is the reason ?

Posted from  Singapore

@ Carlos
Because VdV can move next summer for as little as 1 milliom euros due to a clause in his contract. That is a lot of leverage for Real to use against Hamburg and, for once, Real is doing smart business.

As for Guzman and nationalities, this is an interesting discussion. I am afraid it is only going to get more complicated due to forces both commercial and social. I am not sure there will ever be a clear-cut way to determine a person’s nationality. But if they ever start allowing players to easily switch senior national teams, the end is near.

Posted from  United States

Bob - good points. What does it mean to be Dutch or to be American (Canadian for me)? However, I have to disagree with your suggestion that citizenship/residency should be the determining factor in your national team. I agree that for most cases it is the best criteria, but in some cases I don’t think it’s right. I’ll look at my case to show my point.

I’m completely Dutch in ancestry from both sides of my family, my grandparents on both sides having moved to Canada. Despite the fact that my parents and I were born in Canada, for my entire life I’ve considered myself Dutch-Canadian. Canada is where I live, where I am a citizen and resident, but I still consider myself distinctly Dutch as well. Growing up my family always had a Dutch flavour to it, and in lots of small ways I could see the influence of being Dutch compared to my friends who’s families came from different countries.
I believe before you said your family came to American from Holland a long time ago, so perhaps you didn’t have that same “Dutch flavour” growing up, but for relatively recently immigrated families it is still a strong influence. For this reason I always thought that if I had the chance to choose to play for Holland or Canada (not very likely) I would choose Holland without hesitation. This is also one of the main reasons I choose to support Oranje before Canada.

In another case, for players with absolutely no ties to another country who just move there to get citizenship and then play for the national team (for example, the Brazilians on rich Arabic countries’ teams), I would also have to disagree with using citizenship/residency to determine national team eligibility.

Posted from  Canada

No offense to the Canucks, in the case of de Guzman, it’s probably an easy choice to choose Oranje vs Canada. If he had been a resident of another powerhouse country, then it will be a tougher decision. Being an immigrant myself, I totally agree with the “loyalty” notion written by finnster and Bob, but in this particular case, if someone is talented enough to make it to the Oranje or England squad (Hargreaves), there is no sense to play for Canada.

Off topic to finnster, as a former green card holder, I believe there will be a point when you’ll be asked if you want to get naturalized. It can get a bit complicated, but a family friend had held his green card for 15 plus year now and he is still not converting. I guess the fact that he owns a house here in the US helps even though he doesn’t really live here. I don’t know if he can still keep doing this, i.e.: request for extention for green card.

–H

It’s true. De Guzman was given a choice that was unbeatable given his profession: play for the Dutch national team. It’s easy from the outside to complain about his passing up a chance to strengthen the Canadian system by playing here.

But the Canadian soccer system is broken, or rather it works in the sense that a machine which makes bad bread also, technically speaking, “works”. In the short term, players are not the ones who are going to reform the CSA (which is desperately needed).

I agree with the previous poster who suggested that if De Guzman were born in another soccer powerhouse and moved to Holland then it’s a fairer argument to have.