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Van Basten vs Johan Derksen

May 7th, 2008 | By: Jan | 20 Comments »

Marco van Basten doesn’t get challenged too much in the media. Sure, experts and analists criticize him but once he shows up in a tv program, the host is always happy to protect him. For starters, it is San Marco of course and secondly, they don’t want to risk being blacklisted by omnipresent Kees Jansma, Marco’s press chef.

This time, at Voetbal Insite, they put Johan Derksen on the other end of the table. The venom spouting football vinegar pissing analist and editor of the influential Voetbal International magazine, who recently wrote quite some criticizing articles on Marco.

Johan D is a close friend of Johan Cruyff and Marco’s latest shenanigans with JC made for great reading in the VI columns by Derksen: “Marco is power-hungry, Marco stabbed the man who loved him in the back”, etc etc.

Goose already reported on the interview - and remarked on Marco’s new hairdo. The interview was fun. The hairdo too. The good part of it is, Mrs Van Basten, that it will all grow back again. One day. After the interview, Derksen challenged talking head Genee to shave his head too when Oranje becomes the new champs (did I write when instead of if?). Marco should have dared Derksen to do the same…

It all started cosy (How is the vibe around Oranje, Marco? Marco: all good, thanks. Looking forward to the EC blablablabla).

It became interesting when Derksen reiterated some of his concerns about Van Basten. In a pleasant and eloquent manner. When host Genee read out the words Derksen used in his columns, Van Basten struck a first hit on the chin: “Well, Johan. You say it differently in the column. You’re much nicer now.”

Genee: Is Oranje better than 2 years ago? Marco: We should be. We’re two years further. We are more experienced. My EC is a success if we win the title. If we don’t, it can still be a success, but it depends on the circumstances. We want to win it. But, 15 other nations want to win it as well, so it won’t come easy.

Guest Jan van Halst: I worry about our defense. We have great midfielders and strikers, but our defense is not top.

Marco: Interesting. Most people raise that issue, but if you look at the statistics, we don’t concede a lot of goals and we certainly are not played off the pitch defensively. I’ve seen France and Italy cop goals that look more amateuristic than the goals we conceded. I think the general feeling is one thing, but the facts don’t support that.

Johan Derksen than raises the issues Marco has with Johan Cruyff. He feels Marco lacks social skills and Derksen thinks Van Basten treated Cruyff bad.

Marco: That’s nonsense. You weren’t there, Johan. I will be the end responsible man at Ajax. When JC told me his vision of the re-organization at Ajax, I felt it was too much, too rigorous and too quick. I told Johan several times, but Johan didn’t want to back down with his plans. I said I didn’t want to go that route and Johan immediately said: then I’ll give the assignment back. I felt Johan let me down. I couldn’t go along with this only because Johan is my friend. I have the interests of Ajax to protect and I couldn’t see any justification of this rigorous approach. Believe me, it hurt me too that it went like this, I really feel it’s a shame, but I have made this tough decision for Ajax.

Marco: I am not looking for power and I really don’t like the whole humbug surrounding this. I don’t like it that Johan and I are now no longer frequently in touch, but I know we’re still friends and it will all come good in the end.

Derksen: Do you accept people who don’t agree with you?

Marco: Of course, but it doesn’t mean I will listen to them just like that. They will need to convince me with arguments and facts.

Genee: Did you change over the last years?

Marco: I hope so. Change means progress. It’s been 3 years almost. So, you do develop yourself. In the first phase, I was too dominant. I wanted to see it exactly the way I wanted it to be. I have become a tad more mellow. Look at our change in tactics. I noticed that the players were not happy in the 4-3-3 system. So, I called them together and we discussed it thoroughly and implemented our new system. I am not rigid, as people say.

JD: I remember stories about Marco when he was a 17 year old and he went with young Oranje to this game in Finland. He never played for Ajax 1 back then, but he was challenging the coach on tactics, offended team mates and showed his criticism towards the tactical decisions of the staff.

Marco: I can’t remember that I insulted players or anything, but I do remember the discussion with coach Blok. I didn’t like some of his decisions. But hey, my position is: if players talk about football they at least think about the game. I will never walk away from a discussion. But now, I’m the manager so I get to decide.

Derksen then starts a discussion on Marco’s technical staff (consisting of mates John van ‘t Schip and Rob Witschge). Why doesn’t he have a more seasoned coach as an assistant?

Marco: I don’t see the need. Honestly, with John and Rob and with experienced Ronald Spelbos, Kees Jansma and Hans Jorritsma (former world champion hockey coach and currently team manager at the KNVB) I have all the support. Why would I want a seasoned coach with me when I have Spelbos? And John has 10 years of coaching experience. Rob is great with the players. Willem van Hanegem was Advocaat’s assistant in 2004 and they copped a lot of flak. I mean, Louis van Gaal was very experienced, but he didn’t even qualify for the WC2002!

The point is, Johan, you write that John, Rob and myself play cards. And that that’s why they’re part of the staff. Ridiculous. As if we make up a line-up after playing cards. You deceive the public, because some people will believe you. But where you part of our discussions? Are you there when we train? Do you know what it is we do? No. You can’t judge us.

Johan Derksen: But when you started you didn’t have any experience as a coach. And when you were two months in, you had to make all those decisions, you could have used people with 20 years of experience, like Van Hanegem, De Haan or Van Gaal.

Van Basten: It’s funny how I can’t coach with two months of experience while you criticize me and judge me while you have 0 years of coaching experience.

Van Halst: Did you see Kuyt play, the last weeks? I assume you’ll take him along?

Marco: He’ll be in the preliminary group of 30, yes. He’s done well. It’s funny how I was criticized when I placed him on the right, and look at him now.
I’ve talked about Man United with the players. They have C Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs, Park, Rooney and they’re all over the park. Sometimes Tevez is the deepest striker, with Rooney as a shadow. Then it’s Ronaldo on the left, with Park on the right. That turns the opponent crazy. I’d like to play like that.

Derksen: But Sir Alex has years to train that every day!

Marco: It’s not that hard. With players like van der Vaart, Van Persie, Babel, Kuyt, Seedorf, we can do that too. Most players up front in Oranje play like that.

Genee: But you always said we missed a type like Pirlo.

Marco: To be honest, I think Wesley Sneijder is better than Pirlo. He’s grown a lot. Particularly defensively. I am confident that we can play that way.

When Genee wanted to sign off, Marco interrupted: Maybe a last question for Johan. What Oranje line up would you play?

Derksen:…..

Marco: Answer it, Johan. Tell me your starting eleven.

Derksen: Eh…stutter…stutter…no…I…. I would have to prepare, I didn’t…eh…well…

Marco: There ya go…

Audience laughs.

Derksen:…Well…Sar…I would play one striker….three midfielders…Persie, Vaart, Sneijder….I would…eh….

Marco: I think you’ll find your starting eleven will not differ too much from mine…

Derksen:…..(silence).

During the program, the statement “Oranje will become European Champs” was up for a poll. Only 22% thinks we’ll win the title.

Genee: Oof…that’s a bit low… There doesn’t seem to be an overwhelming faith in the team…

Van Basten: Well, winning the title is very unique of course. You should realize we only won it once before, 20 years ago, so why would we suddenly have 80% of the people thinking we’ll win this? That’s just not realistic. We face Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, Czech Republic, Croatia, Germany…all teams with a serious chance to win. I think 22% is actually a lot!

Tags: Background stories, Euro 2008, Kuyt, Sneijder, Van Basten

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Comments

By Bob | May 7th, 2008 at 11:08 pm

Jan, thanks so much for translating this interview into English. Your time and effort are well received. My reaction to the interview is that van Basten “won the debate”, although I wonder if those that saw it live would share that conclusion. van Basten did not back down from any of the questions, and his answers appeared to make sense. That he is a man of enormous ego is self evident, but that is not news. Why would he not be? As a player, second only to Cruijff, and for some, the Number 1 Dutch player ever. He led the only Dutch team to win a major international tournament at the senior level–a feat even Cruijff did not achieve. He has, as coach, qualified the national team for two major tournaments–World Cup and Euro ‘08–which gives him a 100% success rate during his coaching tenure. The only thing he has not done is coach a winning team at an international tournament. It could be argued that he does not have the talent to win at that level–would another coach do better with the current athletes? So, when Derksen could not respond to Marco’s question about the starting team, if this had been a formal debate judged by others, it seems to me the van Basten was the clear winner.

Posted from United States

By Jan | May 7th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

That’s my opinion too. Also the remark about the fact that Derksen is very tough on Van Basten’s work (in writing that is… He calls him a backstabber, an amateur, etc) but hasn’t visited any training session or doesn’t have any coaching experience hit home too.

Some experts on telly are former coaches. People like Van Hanegem, Adriaanse, Van Gaal…at least they talk from a position of experience.

Something I left out was interesting maybe… Derksen said Marco was cold, ruthless and arrogant. Genee interupted saying that Marco himself said he was warm, emotional and passionate. Why the discrepancy?

Marco said he was only human and has all those treats in him. Like any other person.

Maybe it’s good to mention that Marco in 1988 started with mental coaching for himself (as did Gullit, Rijkaard and others). They worked with some big name “gurus”, and Van Basten reads Anthony Robbins books, among others. He has worked a lot on his “persona” and that sort of “Cool & Collectedness” shines through a bit. It helped him deal with his attitude, his fortune and fame and the mad world these guys entered when in Milan.

Posted from Australia

By goose | May 8th, 2008 at 2:50 am

i saw the interview live and not sure if there was a real winner in the debate though vBasten had little problem answering Derksen…

i think Derksen had the better points; vBasten had NO experience when he started and learned his trade at the highest possible level (Bondscoach) wich is pathetic… vBasten answered that some of the inexperienced Bondscoaches had great results, vBasten named Rijkaard but that ofcourse is a bullshit answer cause Rijkaard didnt play any qualification games and played the EC at home so reaching the semis wasnt too special

second point; its been said over and over again…vBasten is the worst people-manager ever, during the interview he did say that on this point he had made progress, sadly most damage (vBommel) is already done

third point; his staff his a laugh…Witsche??? why??? im sure its just so they have enough people to play klaverjassen… a senior reporter (Jansma) and an old hockey (field)coach (Jorritsma) bring nothing on oranje’s play, they manage evrything outside but do nothing on the inside

all in all; it was great to watch

@Jan; ah yes, the Hamptonoom Ted Troost! i remember that!!

Posted from Netherlands

By goose | May 8th, 2008 at 2:53 am

btw; vBasten asking Derksen what his line-up would be was a stupid question and Derksen answered the way he should answer (Jan missed that one) ” thats not my responsibility”

Posted from Netherlands

By ayl | May 8th, 2008 at 4:56 am

I can’t believe how many times the name Johan is used in that excerpt. haha

By Marc | May 8th, 2008 at 10:31 am

Why so much hate towards van basten… look at Derksen… no offence to the people that like him but i thnk hes a wank.No coaching experience and all he can do is criticise van basten on his way of managing and selecting players. His arguments are vague and he brings out the biggest bullshit concerning the clah between cruyff and van basten. Who cares if he treated him badly?! whats the inscident got to do with winning the E.C. I think u guys are too harsh with van basten.. he has great ideas concerning attacking, dominating etc. and i thnk he just needs a few more weeks to get his team back together and to apply what hes been talking about. Dont forget that the national team rarely meets and that other big nations are also having issues of their own… May God, luck and hope be with van basten and oranje!

Posted from Switzerland

By tiju | May 8th, 2008 at 10:56 am

Marco’s ass going to be kicked soon.hell with de jong ,kuyt,jaliens etc

By goose | May 8th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

@Marc; nobody hates vBasten, we all love him BUT it cant be denied that vBasten made a mess of some things and hasnt let the team play the way he promised they would..so im happy that once in a while somebody tells him how it is…remember; people like vBasten are not used to critism, theyve been around people telling them theyre great for all their lifes
and i really dont see why you need to have experience as a manager to have critism on a Bondscoach…i say; as long as you stick to the facts everybody can have their opinion…

Posted from Netherlands

By stephen | May 8th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

vBasten is fine…some screw ups? yes, but we say that about every coach in every sport. Should van Bommel be on the team…probably, but it is not like he is the saviour, in fact he was pretty much crap in the last major tournament I saw him in. Marco has led us into a 2nd major tournament and he has more recently been more flexible in formations. It is time for our “world-class” players to start playing like that on the pitch. Marco can only do so much, the players have to want it and go get it themselves.

Posted from United States

By Jan | May 8th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

@Goose, you’re right, Derksen did say “not my responsibility”, but my point is that Derksen is trying to sell magazines. When Advocaat was in charge, Derksen was against Dick and Derksen supported the signing of Marco. Now he is totally assassinating Marco’s character in the press and when he’s faced with Marco on tv he doesn’t have the guts to repeat his diatribe. I think Derksen is a fun writer, good articles, but he plays to much on the man and doesn’t seem to have any original ideas on football himself. The way he wrote about Vergoossen, Van Marwijk and earlier on Wouters and Blind and recently Gullit is without respect. I can’t believe no one ever decked the man :-).

Other than that, I am on Stephen’s side: the players ought to step up to the plate now and take responsibilities. A manager can’t win the title. The players do. Van Basten also said: most players select themselves. It doesn’t take a coaching degree to select the best 16 Dutch players. It’s the last 6 that takes some debate (Vennegoor or Koevermans, De Jong or Landzaat) but other than that… Give them a ball, feed them well, rent some videos and go play football!

Posted from Australia

By Genio | May 8th, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Wow really enjoyable discussion here… I snickered at Jan’s closing line (Give them a ball, feed them well, rent some videos and go play football!) what videos do footballers like to watch anyway -someone gimme a clue.

Posted from Singapore

By John | May 9th, 2008 at 5:39 am

I saw the interview and ofcourse Marco van Basten made scored some points yet it doesn’t make the trouble Derksen pointed out go away. Remember: Van Basten is Cruijff’s former protege and learned everything from him in his earlier years. Remember at the beginning of Euro 1988? Michels put Van Basten as a right winger during the last matches of the Dutch squad because Kieft and Bosman were playing fantastic as strikers. Van Basten was desillusioned after the game and asked his friend and coach Cruijff for help, who advised him not to accept this and make a demand wich was:Or you gonna put me as a striker on the team or i won’t go to Euro 88 in Germany. Wisely van Basten choose not to make this demand to Cruijff’s former teachter/coach and just go with the squad and become healthier for the next Italian football season and see were it all would end. Well we all know what happened? Bosman as central striker failed at the first game(wich Holland lost against Russia) and Van Basten was called upon in the next game and became the topscorer of the tournament. So i think the plans Cruijff had with Ajax were to old fashioned and Marco’s decision not to follow it up was the correct one. Remember the old saying? never throw your old shoe away before you have new ones. Regarding Van Basten’s way as the coach of the national team: He wiped out with the ‘german’ style of football at the Worldcup 2006 in Germany all of Holland’s wellknown reputation since 1974. That was a greater damage then anyone before. For that i think Van Basten is a disgrace and were Derksen his remarks right on the spot and to the point. I too have hardly any regards for Van Basten as the dutch coach and expect nothing at Euro 2008. Infact i expect us home within two weeks.

Posted from Netherlands

By Jan | May 9th, 2008 at 9:07 am

Hmmm…. John, if I understand you correctly, you say that it was maybe good of Marco to not follow Johan’s advice on the Ajax reorganisation, but you do feel Marco failed as team manager for Oranje, right?

I agree with the Ajax bit. If Marco is right, Johan apparently said: do it my way or I walk away. That sort of sounds like an ultimatum. Not something that works, and Marco made a brave decision to go for Ajax’ best interests, despite what Johan thought about it.

As for Marco ruining Oranje’s reputation… I don’t know. Football has changed. A lot. Dutch total football was impressive in the 70s because it was new. You can’t surprise opponents anymore and every big nation has trouble winning against smaller nations. The qualification matches of Oranje for the WC74 were horrible. In fact, due to a referee’s mistake Holland got to go, otherwise Belgium was qualified!! Never forget that

And we had a super generation back then: Cruyff, De Kromme, Nees, Rensenbrink, Rep, Krol, Muhren… I mean… We don’t have that quality now. Even Wenger and Rijkaard - who really try to play great football - didn’t win prizes this season. And they have their players every day, while Marco only sees them every now and then. Plus, as a team manager you can’t do squat when you miss certain qualities on certain positions.

In all honesty, I don’t care if Oranje plays great football in qualification. I want them to qualify and playing C-rate teams is hard! I want them to do good at the big tournaments and rather with great football.

But it rarely happens that the best playing team wins. Ask the Brazilians in 1982, Czech Republic in 1996 or 2004. Oranje in 1998. Oranje in 1992.

Etc etc.

I didn’t mind Oranje’s performance against Serbia and Ivory Coast in Germany 2006. The Argentina game was for the cats balls and the Portugal match, well… I’ve never seen anything like that before, to be honest. If Cocu and Van Persie had more luck (…), we could have won that game too.

I believe we would have played England (easy) and then… Can’t remember who, but I think we would have had a shot at the title…. REALLY

Posted from Australia

By goose | May 10th, 2008 at 3:04 am

Funny; always looks like the people on this blog who live in Holland are a little harder on vBasten

Jan; we did not have a shot at the WC06… WC98; yes

Posted from Netherlands

By ferenc | May 10th, 2008 at 5:23 am

Jan: in 2006 we didn’t have the team for the title (especially without seedorf,davids and huntelaar). in 98 yes. marco is not that bad as sometimes we think. he doesn’t have the material. this generation has nothing to do with the 70s,late 80s and 90s-early 00s generations. the problem is that we don’t want to consider this fact and try to say that our defenders are not that worse than stam and fdb,however the reality is,that even reiziger is a world class player comparing with our current defenders. the midfield is ok,meanwhile we don’t have holding midfielders like davids,wim jonk, jan wouters,etc. the rest? maybe,but a bergkamp,kluivert or a gullit,van basten duo were much more convincing than ruud and van persie. marco has these players. hope that we’ll get some results. agree with others i don’t care about the qualifications. great teams don’t care about them too much: italy always have problems,france too. one thing counts: to be there,and that’s it. we are there. only tournaments are important. i’m sure that we will see a different oranje there. and a different italy and france too. our great chance that we’ll start against italy. 0-0 is great for both team. the beginning is always difficult. our key games will be against france and romania.

Posted from Hungary

By ferenc | May 10th, 2008 at 5:25 am

what is interesting too that 4 of the “sacchi babies” have become very important managers: marco (oranje,ajax),frankie (oranje,barca,?),carlo (milan),donadoni (italy). we always say that rinus and johan were the greatest coaches. i’m agree with this opinion. but sacchi definitely has his place there as well.

Posted from Hungary

By Jan | May 10th, 2008 at 8:34 am

I beg to disagree :-).

We may not have had the World Class team in 06, but if we would have won against Portugal (and they didn’t play us off the pitch, remember) anything could have happened! I can’t remember who we would have played in the draw but there was no outstanding team in ‘06 (bar Germany?). That’s what I meant to say.

Other than that, I agree with all you guys said. Incl the Sacchi comment. And don’t forget Gullit at LA Galaxy

Posted from Australia

By ferenc | May 10th, 2008 at 9:08 am

actually your argumentation is logical. we could have beaten portugal,we were unlucky and marco did the worst choice of his life (kuyt instead ruud) ,england as always was crap ,so we easily would have eliminated them (something like 3-0,3-1),but in the semi final france would have beaten oranje.

Posted from Hungary

By goose | May 10th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

well’ if’ and ‘could ‘dont count

saw some U17 action (Hol v Schotland) today..this younger brother of Sneijder is a very good player..i was impressed

Posted from Netherlands

By tjeerd | May 10th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

I enjoyed the interview. Clever of Marco to turn the tables on Derkson at the end.

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