Drama at Anfield: last second own goal!

Good God - I hope this doesn’t make Van Basten want to pick Kuyt as a winger for Oranje - that would be a DISASTER. The man simply can’t cross. Even in the run-up to the goal, it only came because he failed to deliver his pass and it deflected to Mascherano. The guy is no great tackler either. Basically - apart from all the running he does, what is the point of Dirk Kuyt? He’s workmanlike as they come. It was a decent finish though, I’ll give him that, but he’s not nearly consistent enough with his goalscoring.

As for Babel - I agree that perhaps he hasn’t fully settled at Liverpool but that’s to be expected - the Premiership is a tough league to adapt to, and bigger names have failed much more miserably. Don’t know where you’re getting Liverpool’s “one touch game” from though, most of the time this season they’ve just been hoofing it up to Torres and hoping. Probably the worst footballing side in the English top 4. Whenever Babel’s played he’s looked their most exciting player bar Torres and perhaps Gerrard - getting shots away, troubling defences. I think next season he’ll really take off,t Euro2008 he’ll have a crap tournament, that’s where workmanlike players get found out. though it would be much better if Benitez played him up front (but Rafa’s team selection skills are woeful so that won’t happen, just look at poor Peter Crouch).

Hilarious defending by Riise though - one of the worst decisions I’ve ever seen.

Posted from  Japan

“Euro2008 he’ll have a crap tournament, that’s where workmanlike players get found out” - this bit was about Kuyt but got shifted to Babel by accident - ignore!

Posted from  Japan

Rob, thanks for your comments… I can see where you’re coming from, but I don’t fully agree.

To start my response: although Dutch players are always seen as technically skilled, the legendary ex-players Van Hanegem and Cruyff always said: tricks are great when you work in a circus. Real technical skills is playing a ball in one go, on the right foot, at the right pace. I truly think that Liverpool (and Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, ManU, etc) know how to play that one touch football. Little triangles on the field, bang-bang-bang. Lovely to see.

And Babel’s deficiency in that aspect of the game should have been ironed out at Ajax already, but like Ruud Gullit before him, Babel doesn’t have that in him. His vision is limited (for now, that may develop) and once he gets the ball his eyes are fixed on the ball. Others, incl Kuyt, always have their head up. That’s why Babel sometimes decides to make a run in the channel when their either better pasing opps for him and/or there are three defenders waiting for him. He plainly doesn’t see them!

And at his age, with his Ajax pedigree (some at Ajax never saw it in him by the way) I don’t think he’ll develop into a more technically skilled player.

Kuyt’s crosses aren’t great. Agreed! I don’t think we’d want him to play winger in the 4-2-3-1 set up. Sneijder, Vaart, Persie, Seedorf and Afellay are above Dirk in the hierarchy. I HOPE!

But he can be worthwhile for us as a supersub. You can’t ignore the fact that he can score, he runs for every ball and never gives up. He never surrenders… (thanks to Ol’ Winston).

His tackling may not be great but today he challenged several Chelsea players and took the ball away from them. The goal he made can be seen as you described (failed cross) but you must have also seen that after that cross, it was Kuyt who repossessed the ball and gave it to Mascherano. It actually was a 1-2 combination, hahaha….

Posted from  Australia

@Bob: are you mad??? a disaster if Kuijt plays?? could you give me a better option on the right-wing please?!

nothing wrong with Dirks crosses..theyre not better or worse than any other winger…problem with Dirk is that he lacks speed so hell alway find it difficult to reach the backline to deliver a cross

for a midfielder/attacker his defensive qualities are without question..nothing wrong with the guys tackling

i wonder Bob if you know anything about Kuijt…youre remark kinda pissed me off…..dont underestimate his qualities and dont underestimate the fact that ANY team needs different kind of players….prima donna’s, work horses etc. etc.

btw; agree on Riise…what the f&^&*^ was he thinking??? he spoiled Kuijts (and my) game

Posted from  Netherlands

@jan; nah; think vPersie on the wing is a waste…he should play right behind vNistelrooij…Robben on the left, Kuijt on the right…and with Kuijt on the right, the right midfiel;der and right-back will have more freedom to do attacking…Kuijt works as an extra defender/midfielder…with all those small guys running around our midfield my guess is some extra muscle wont hurt us!1

btw; please let Engelaar go Jan…no use for us, trust me on this one!!

Riise should be put before a jugde in court…what the hell did he do, it was the most pathetic defending ive ever seen (and i never liked Riise anyway), dont think well see him play lots of games for Liverpool in the future, if Liverpool fail to qualify its all Riise’s fault

Posted from  Netherlands

what about this one:

———————— van der Sar ——————

—- Melchiot——————————-Bouma——

—————-Ooijer —– Matijssen —————-

———————-de Zeeuw ————————

—-Kuijt ——————————-van der Vaart—-

———————-van Persie————————–

————– van Nistelrooij—————–Robben——

Posted from  Netherlands

And where is Heitinga?
Goose….
Do you think Ooijer is better than Heitinga?

Posted from  Indonesia

Goose,
Ooijer has had problems getting a regular run at Blackburn. I wouldn’t risk playing him from the start, doubt he is in EC match fitness and can last 90 mins at that level.

Besides he is 34 years old. I’d rather see him coming off the bench as a defensive substitution.

His biggest asset is his versatility (can be used as a defensive/holding midfielder as well as a CB), which is another reason I would keep him on the bench as he gives the mamanger several options.

Posted from  United States

Good news for Holland for WC qual as Riise shows his capability to completely be unable to use his right foot and just use “the easy option” and apply a spectacular diving header instead 4 mins on overtime. He should know with an ugly angular haircut like that, chances are that he will catch a funny bounce. Why not use the right foot? He must be the most one-legged professional player at that level in Europe I have ever seen.

As a Liverpool fan I am totally gutted. As a Norwegian, I am doubly gutted. He will be playing for Newcastle next year. Just watch.

Anyway, getting that off my chest. Kuijt looked awesome. Can’t see how Oranje can overlook him now, given his recent form.

Posted from  United States

Think Ooijer is more solid as a defender…..rather see Heitinga play a season abroad before putting him in the starting 11…and i liked the way Ooijer played for Oranje the last couple of games he played but i agree that Heitinga is closing in on him

Sneijder was even more difficult; i had to make a choice cause with Sneijder on midfield we would have very few players with defensive qualities … now with Kuijt vdVaart and deZeeuw i think theres more balance (still think we cant play Sneijder and vdVaart in one team)

the biggest problem i faced was making a starting 11 where Kuijt had a role!!! hahaha … Kuijt really has stolen my heart!!

but ok people; lets see our other options!!

Posted from  Netherlands

I would do very fine without Mathijsen and Kuyt. I’d like to have both of them in the squad though - Kuyt could come in and defend a lead, while Mathijsen is a decent backup defender for Heitinga or perhaps Landzaat. But against a team like Italy, you really dont need Kuyt on a flank because their wing backs aint a threat and the same thing pretty much goes out to France who wont let their wing backs attack much as their central defenders is getting too old and slow. Against Romania we could need Kuyt from start since Razvan Rat is really good in both directions, plus Mutu tends to use the flank a lot.

Van der Sar

Melchiot Bouma
Heitinga Mathijsen

De Zeeuw Gio

Kuijt Persie Robben

Nistelrooy

*I hope van Bommel gets back and replaces de Zeeuw. The same with Kromkamp replacing Melchiot.

*Robben, Babel, Persie are not good when defending. Kuyt can do some defensive duties as we’ve seen him do at Liverpool so that gives more balance to our midfield and besides he’s done it at the WC qualifyings.

MR; like what you did, but Matijsen as a left back?? no vdVaart, no Sneijder…will vPersie be more of a midfielder in this team?

* i ofcourse agree on vBommel..did you know he broke his nose in the german Cup final but will play v Zenit without a mask! Mark rules; he played great at the Cup Final, had great passes over 5- meters (one of them started te Bayers goal) and ruled midfield

* agreed; that what i am looking for in my line up..balance….very importent..you need players to make other players play better…)pfff, what a line!)

Posted from  Netherlands

@goose: I put Mathijsen on the center and Bouma on the left but it came out wrong on the screen though. Van Persie playing just behind Ruud but also going to the right and to the left making all the 3 players up front very versatile and not sticking to only their positions.
Why not Sneijder or vdVaart?, well because I see Robben and vPersie as untouchables when they are in-form and Kuyt is the one that would help Bommel and De Zeeuw on defensive duties.

Thanks for sharing the vBommel story, that’s why I like him so much because he really has balls and I don’t see that on any other midfielder.

the way he played at 1st leg vs arsenal was great. dirk kuyt can play as a wing back not n out n out right back nor a right winger. semi winger wud be the right position arount the centre line at the right hand side
i think rvp looks impressive wen he plays just behind striker. look how he plays for arsenal behing adebayor. if robben stays fit, no one can challenge for that left wing. snijder i guess looks instrumental for real at the central midfield. at the centre back heitinga n mathijssen wud be the obvious choice

Posted from  Nepal

@Goose & Jan:
I see where you guys are coming from, and I agree that teams need different types of players. I’m not ruling out Kuyt because I don’t think he’s fancy enough on the ball. I’m saying that he shouldn’t be picked JUST because he works hard and gets all over the pitch. If we were talking a player like Gattuso or Roy Keane - neither of whom are great technicians - it’s be fine because they’re good at tackling and passing. Playing Kuyt in midfield is like playing Rooney there, or expecting someone like Scholes to defend - the guy is technically rubbish at tackling and not a great passer of the football. If you ask him to get back and tackle there’s a good chance he’ll go and give away a stupid penalty. Basically - it’s only good to have a player running all over the pitch if they can actually play in the sort of position they’ll run into - I really don’t think Kuyt can do that behind his own halfway line - if you do then that’s the point we disagree on. I agree that Oranje needs other types of players to the lightweight technicians, but Kuyt (as you hinted at yourself goose) doesn’t really have a role or place in the side where he’d excel at balancing the team out. Don’t really see him as an impact player either - though he could be good to bring on up front if we’re looking to hold a lead - no doubt he’ll run his heart out, defend from the front, and do a decent job holding the ball up.

@Goose: Other right wing options? Van Persie was wicked there at the last WC - he and Robben were the only players who looked class. There are enough central attacking players so there’s really no need to move him. Pretty sure Sneijder could do a better job out there than Kuyt too, though I’d prefer not to sacrifice him out wide (has he ever even been tried in that position for Oranje?). Pretty sure Babel’s been more effective than Kuyt every time he’s played out there for Oranje too.

@Jan: Point taken that Babel’s not looking up enough yet, but that can come with a bit of maturity. I’d see him as an impact player currently or someone to get on the end of moves if he plays. If every player is just a neat passer, you end up like Arsenal - trying to pass it into the net, no-one crossing or shooting from distance - lovely to watch but about as potent as Pele. A balance is needed.

I’d go with:
GK: Van der Sar
RB: Kromkamp
LB: De Cler
CB: Heitinga
CB: Ooijer (Matijsen worries me)
DMF: Van Bronckhorst
DMF: De Zeeuw
AMR: Van Persie
AML: Robben
AMC: Sneijder/Van der Vaart
CF: Van Nistelrooy/Huntelaar

If Robin’s injured, Sneijder plays on the right, if Robben’s injured Van der Vaart plays on the left.

Posted from  Japan

@Rob: I think Kuyt can play as right winger, he’s done it during the WC qualifyings and it’s the best time he’s had with Oranje and now that he’s been given that position at Liverpool he’s getting back to his best so I think he can with the position, in fact I think that’s his natural position because he’s good as center forward but not enough to play alone in the national team. As you said he can’t be defending on his own half or at least not near the penalty area but he’s always pressing and annoying defenders and that makes them lose balls which is good for us.

Van Persie shouldn’t play on the right. He did well at the WC but his natural position is just behind the striker.

@rob kuyt sucks ha ha
good veiw Rob u r veiws are more practical
his skills are equal to mine .
can i paly for orange?
definiftly that will be disaster.

@goose agree ur points we need some work horses in the mid like davids
englaar,de saaw,gio,schaars,drenthe,mendes da silva all are above dirk kuyt in that aspect the n we need him?
and afaleey,castelen,bruins are better than this guy?
we do nt need him for orange he can play for albania.
i cannt pardon him after wc 2006 portugal match.
this guy should suck.
i am not comparing with him to robin,ruud,hanlaar,haiselink,vaart,znijder coz he is not elligible to compare with these guys

tiju ur really ridiculous.. kuyt has definitely the best work rate in football today, if that alone cannot convince you to have him as a supersub then i dont think u know much about football.

i dont agree he should be a starter, hes not very consistant, but can be explosive, which is what you’d need from a supersub.

Anyways, bad news today!! melchiot got himself injured for the remainder of the season. Even after being substituted 25 mins into the game, eurosport considered him man of the match.. So thats pretty disappointing. i dont see a better right back for Oranje at the moment..
Any news how serious the injury is?

Rob!
I want you see kuyt as an striker sharing defensive duty. He don’t need no be a perfect tackler but tough, defensive minded and work hard.
Biggest weakness of Orange is defence nowaday. We don’t have smart defenders while willing to paly a pressing game against better opponents.
At that situation each and every player need to take part in defence.
Ruud, Robben and Persie in one line up could be a deserter in defence.
I wonder you guys watch their recent forms carefully or not! Persie is far from getting back his own from and ruud disappeared for long.
Only reliable orange players visible at big stages are Robben, Sneijder, Kuyt, Babel and Sar.
I have to accept your 4231 formation and six defensive players of yours to be a realistic option as Basten is very likely to go that way. But we have to notice left and right attacking midfields in that formation are not essentially functioning like of 433 or 442, means crosses mostly come from side defenders.
If I were forces to play that way I rather go with Sneijder, Vaart, Kuyt on attacking midfield role and Ruud or Huntelaar up front.
Assuming MVB turns in to more fluid way, I’d rather suggest
Kromkamp, Heitinga,Ooijer,Bouma
De jong, Sneijder
Vaart
Kuyt, ruud,Robben.
Robben can play both wings and all others apart from Ruud should be at 4:4 defence while we are loosing ball.

Posted from  Australia

Jan;
I am not a De jongs’ fan either. He is playing just normal there.
But he shows some more performace then De zeeuw, like participation in attacks and shadowing the team mate in case of loosing possession.
Non of them is good enough. How nice Affalay or Dranthe can paly that role?

Posted from  Australia