Football football football…

Experimentation suggestions:

- Give Zuiverloon a shot at right back (move Marcellis into the center).
- Pair Kuyt and Van Persie up front (bench Huntelaar until his form comes back).
- Try a 4-4-2 formation? Maybe something like:

Steks

Zuiverloon Marcellis Heitinga Melchiot

Vaart Bommel Sneijder Robben

Persie Kuyt

I’m not completely sure about this line up, but that’s why it’s called experimentation, right?

Posted from  Canada

Caleb: Agree on the back four except Melchiot at LB…..why not give Urby or Drenthe a try?. Some people even said De Cler…. thought?

L’Oranje a 4-4-2? Never!!!

Posted from  United States

@bloodyfrenchgirls – strange name But yes, Oranje as a 4-4-2. It’s been done before (to our great success even!), and we could do it again. Who’s to say that a 4-2-3-1 is more Dutch than a 4-4-2 anyways? There’s only one truly “Dutch system”, 4-3-3, but you need the right players to play that system.

@Ragnar – I like De Cler as well. I always thought he did well when I saw him play for Oranje, but I have to admit I haven’t seen him play at club level very much. I have seen Melchiot at club level (where he’s captain by the way) and he always look pretty solid to me.
As for Urby… I’ve not been very impressed with him. I’d take Melchiot or De cler over Urby as a left back anyday. Drenthe? I don’t think I ever want to see him playing left back in Oranje! Maybe as a midfielder once he improves/matures, but not as a left back…

Posted from  Canada

@ Caleb: Maybe not a conventional 4-4-2 diamond, I am thinking more of a 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1, similar to Real Madrid’s. I don’t like a twin strikers upfront because clearly Oranje stongest asset is now in midfield. I would rather see one player drops deeper (Van der Vaart or Kuyt) to support the goal poacher (Van Persie or Huntelaar). For midfield, I’d give starting berth to De Jong as DM, Van Bommel/Afellay and Sneijder as playmakers, and Robben as threat for wing position.

Other experiments worth to try is finding the natural right wingers and back up for LB. Both Beerens and Elia are inching closer for call ups, while Braafheid has been very solid, he is a much better option than Drenthe or Emanuelson.

Posted from  United States

I think 4-3-3 is dead, really. It worked when players played “one to one” more, and the likes of Keizer, Moulijn, Rensenbrink, De Wit, Overmars and Van ‘t Schip would take on two or more defenders one at a time to cross the ball in. With today’s physical and tactical developments, a winger doesn’t get the time to do this anymore so many times he needs the support of a midfielder or full back to find the combination. This “spreading” of the playing field can’t be done anymore. Space between the players gets to big.

Playing 4-4-1-1 (or any combination like that) allows teams to keep the pitch tight when not in possession and to fan out into space at the turnaround. Playing with wide midfielders (Robben, Van Persie) allows for much more variation: they can come into central, go out wide, combine, run deep for a ball in space or come back to fetch the ball…

I like Caleb’s idea…

Jan,

Really enjoyed your experimental comments in the other thread. Lots to think about. Completely agree on a front pairing of VP and VDV, more in a 1-1 than a two, would give VDV the opportunity to dro off a bit and find space for his passes…I imagine VP playing as he does at Arsenal, with alot of range and mobility.

I guess what I just can’t see is a central midfield without both Van Bommel and De Jong. The Russia game was reminiscent of the second halves of the Ivory Coast and Serbia WC games where the midfield just got completely overrun. VB and De Jong together give the midfield teeth.

Since the back four is the problem, I wonder about a 3-4-3, with DeJong and VB in the center, and if Kuyt plays wide right (I love his game, even when he is not getting the great touches, as in Norway, he contributes so much), the back three should have enough protection. But I also wonder whether people think its possible to have success over the course of a to flight tournament playing 3-4-3.

Saw the RM game. Caleb is absolutely right, RVN’s goal was superb, a real sniper’s goal…goalkeeper was leaning slightly to his left, and RVN hit it to his right, just sneaking it in on the shortside from distance. Though, Caleb, I will say this, I thought RVN’s red card was for intent because it was pretty clear that Ruud had had enough of the way the Atletico players were going after him and the other RM players…but you are quite right when you say that there was nothing different from his foul then the ones earlier committed by AM—some of which didn’t even draw a yellow. RM wins with Drenthe drawing an extra time penalty against…Heitinga. He really has trouble defending one on one in space, doesn’t he?

Andrew

Posted from  United States

@Andrew – yeah, I heard the commentators talking about “intent” as well (although even they didn’t think it was red). I don’t think a ref should be giving red cards for tackles that aren’t particularly dangerous (it wasn’t studs up, high, two footed or anything like that) because they have “intent”. I can understand if Ruud did have intent, after some of those tackles against him and his team mates, and I think maybe he was sending a message, but either way, it’s still only a yellow (maximum).

@3ric – I agree with you about the 4-4-1-1 (we have the players that can do well in this formation), but I disagree slightly about who should go where… for me, Van Persie shouldn’t be the front man, he should the the shadow striker playing off the main striker (like at Arsenal). So I guess I’d put Kuyt up front, or Huntelaar when he’s back in form. Also, I think Real Madrid is pretty much a classic 4-4-2, with Ruud and Raul being the front two – some might say Raul plays behind Ruud, but I don’t find that in reality; they tend to play beside each other, swapping positions all the time.

I like the Andrew idea of 3-4-3. I never forget the Great JC saying, that if you put too much defenders in vs the number of attackers of the opponent, they will get sloppy, losing seconds in looking at each other “do you take him or do I?”… His thing was: keep ‘m sharp. If the opponent plays two strikers, only deploy 3 defenders. I like that.

So:

Stekelenburg
Boulah Heitinga Marcellis
Kuyt De Jong Van Bommel Sneijder
V Persie vd Vaart Robben

Yes

Caleb, We agree. I don’t think it should have been a red, either. I’m just trying to understand why the ref made the call, and it was the only thing I could think of. I thought it was pretty clear that RVN went for for him because he’d had enough. Just moments before he’d been chopped down with pretty clear intent; and Maniche’s foul a few moments before that was worse than Ruud’s.

Jan, I was asking the collective wisdom of the board whether its possible to win a top tournament going 3-4-3 I take it you agree. Others?

Posted from  United States

Jan!..Andrew.
I’m astrong believer on 343..but still prefer to have a Resilient mid- field though. i’d rather go for..
Boulah Heitinga Marcellis
Affely, bommel, sneijder, Dranthe
Vaart, kuyt , Pers

Posted from  Australia

@sphinx
kuyt is not a prolific goal scorer.so playing him as central striking postion is suizide.(i like his hardwork and unslfishness only apart from that this guy in less than a mediocre.)
343 is good idea
stekel
bula-,marcelis-,bouma
afaleey -de jong-vanbommel-drenthe
Vaart-vanpersie-roban/babel

Posted from  India

I am a big 3-4-3 fan especially if 2 of the front 3 wide man can also double back in defence. The whole idea of this system is 2 markers to mark the 2 forward pairing and one “libero” or free man who sweeps. Do we have a libero (anyone remember Baresi of Milan ?) even Koeman wasn’t too bad in that position, slow but can read when a defence breaks up. The rest of the 4-3 we have enough talent !

Posted from  Singapore

Sorry Andrew, but yes I think a 3-4-3 can win a big prize, but:

1. I’m not to hung up on systems. Any team needs to be able two or three systems PER GAME… In possession, you play differently than without possession, etc. And when the score line needs a rash change, the team should be able to do this… For instance, 1-0 down and 20 minutes to go. What do you do?

2. We don’t have the Krol, Koeman, Haan, Blind or De Boer momentarily. I suppose Danny Blind’s son Dailey could be that person in 5 years time!!
I’d try Bommel on that spot and something tells me Heitinga could have it in him, but maybe I had too much red wine.

3. To perfect this system, a coach needs time. Remember however, how Michels had to play Haan – Rijsbergen in 1974 as an experiment because Israel, Laseroms and Hulshof got injured right before the WC. So, sometimes luck and improvisation come into play. Of course, we did have one Cruyff, one Van Hanegem, one Neeskens and one Wim Jansen playing for us. Van Bommel = Neeskens? Van der Vaart = Van Hanegem? De Jong=Jansen? But who will be JC? I’m too old…

Ok, so I’ll just repeat what all of you said, but I want to say it too .

The 1-0 by Ruud was astonishing (get that Orange jersey out of the cupboard man!!!). The 2-0 was a typical Ruud/poaching goal, on side of course.
The red card was ridiculous. It was a late but clean challenge. I’d say: yellow for Ruud and yellow for the drama queen with the three rolls…
Madrid does need a lot of chances to score, though…

@Jan – of course they need a lot of chances to score when the ref keeps calling them offside!
@Andrew – you’re right, the only reason I could see is that the ref thought there was intent. Either way, Real is appealing the red card saying it should only have been a yellow. We’ll have to see what happens.

Posted from  Canada

off topic; little clip of a beautiful free kick

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/276601/46afbd08/een_bewussie.html

Posted from  Netherlands

Jan, What are you apologizing for…I was just asking opinions. Most of you know more about the game than I do, and I was just curious. I think your comment about multiple systems is correct. If I’m not mistaken when Oranje took the lead in Macedonia, they had moved VP into a more central position near Huntelaar and were in essence 4-4-2 …I guess the reason I was thinking about 3-4-3 was that Oranje seem to have a lack of defenders and an overabundance of talent in the midfield/attack, and I was considering a way to get more of the talent on the field as opposed to automatically saving 4 spaces for the weakest line. And the more I watch him play, the more I think Kuyt has to be out there…re RVN: I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t go to SA if he continues to play like this.

Posted from  United States

tiju: your option may be better i agree. persie at the central and robben or babel at the could be more productive.
Carlos: boula is the guy for libro: i always remeber how he handled ronaldinho.
Jan: please don’t compare man to man back with 74 generation let’s think as a system.
as andrew see we need to get to a solution on our loaded attacking talents with lacking defensive counterparts..
finding a proper mix and chemistry at the mid-4 could be only way

Posted from  Australia