Sneijder in, Boulah out?

Good, no 4-4-2. Changing formation is to swear in church. Already a couple of years ago people were saying “oh Holland got so many good attackers, why dont they play 4-4-2?”. Various reasons, one is that few dutch coaches are able to create a good 4-4-2 tactic. Another one is that it would kind of ruin the Dutch tradition and football mentality. A third reason is that it didnt work 2004 and what says it should work now? In the end it would look more like a 4-2-4 formation because Dutch wingers cant play defense, and when they try, they dont really know when to attack so it gets to defensive.

In 2004, Advocaat tried playing 4-4-2 with Kluivert and van Hooijdonk in the attack. van Hooijdonk made a good performance, cause he has played 4-4-2 before when he was in Celtic and Nottingham. Kluivert looked really confused cause by that time he hadnt been playing in England. Many of the Dutch players dont have a clue how to run in a 4-4-2, especially nowadays when most of the players belong to Dutch clubs.

Posted from  Sweden

Good point Simon. Dutch wingers are not good defenders(Robben and Persie). Forget about 442. We have problems for mid-field domainancy even with 433. one extra striker would surely worsen it.343 could be the solution, no wing backs and all defenders sit behind.

Posted from  Myanmar

442 workrd well in the past: 88,92 (gullit,van basten),98,2000 (bergkamp,kluivert),but now i can’t see it working. on the other hand,teams having results all play a kind of 422 or 4231 (italy,france,germany,even brazil).maybe holland should imitate barcelona playing with wingers between the attack and the midfield.but has the actual oranje such a good (and not selfish) wingers like ronaldinho,giuly/messi? i don’t think so.

Posted from  Hungary

Eh, Van Persie actually did a great job defending in the WC. Remember the save on the goal line with his chest against Cote D’Ivoire? Remember his staying in his zone tenaciously?

But not a huge fan of the formation discussions - football is a fluid game, it’s won when players move in unison. And that’s where I think the Dutch are being misled right now. Van Baasten should figure out what formation his players need - and go with that. Rather than trying to fit the players into the formation.

Tons of teams use 4-4-2, some use 3-5-2, some use 3-2-3-2 (two defending midfielders, three attacking midfielders), etc.

All can work, but the key is whether you get the players playing together. What we want is nice passes, setting up good shots.

Posted from  United States

i have said it before and i say it again 4 3 3 is only good agianst less skilled opposition, but in order to win against the big teams you have got to play a defensive game… especially when most big knock out matches are decided on one goal… our midfield is not good enough for a 4 3 3 and we get overrun… the reason why in 2004 the 4 4 2 didn’t work was because kluivert was barely fit and a shadow of his former self because a player of his caliber knows how to play 4 4 2 he did it in wc 98… what about a 4-4-2 with van der vaart playing as a supporting striker to robben upfront as a centre forward???or huntelaar upfront??? after all van der vaart has publically stated he prefers the role as a supporting striker… like a bergkamp role…why not put van persie in left midfield for support and pace??!!

Posted from  Canada

how many good defending midfielder we have,especially in marco’s team? because we really need a balanced and strong enough midfield.van bommel and seedorf could do this,and let pace to van der vaart (btw agree with goose: vdv and sneijder don’t work together,they didn’t work at ajax at all).
maybe like this: van der saar - heitinga,boulahrouz,matthijsen,van bronckhorst - van bommel,seedorf - van persie,van der vaart, robben - huntelaar. i can’t see any better oranje,with subs like rvn,schaars,ooijer,sneijder,kuijt

Posted from  Hungary

4-3-3 worked very well against very good teams in Euro 2000. Theres no reason why it wouldnt be possible to make it work again, six years is a short time. Ajax and PSV have both managed to perform well in the Champions Legue with 4-3-3.

Posted from  Sweden

@simon… at euro 2000 we beat a good czech team on a last minute suspect penalty kick (cause we were at home) … a french side that had already progressed… and we lost to italy… so no… the 4-3-3 system didn’t work against good teams did it!!! as for ajax they have had mediore results in the champions league for they past 9 years and this year they are already out… as for psv got a favorable draw to get to the semi’s 2 years ago but apart from that haven’t done to much…4-3-3 worked well in the seventies but not in the modern era of football…

Posted from  Canada

I agree with Samuel again and some others there. The 433 or 442 is a non-issue discussion. It’s not about that! You can play attacking, dominating football with 442 (AC Milan, Oranje 1988) and you can suck with 433 (WC06).
Furthermore, I think v Persie showed his leadership in the youth teams. He was the boss, the numero 10, the leader of the pack, but then his character came in the way and Rafael vd Vaart started calling the shots. The Ajax clan took over at the Oranje youth teams, but they never actually won anything and I am still not convinced Raf, Wesley, Maduro, Nigel de Jong etc make great leaders! And look…it took Danny Blind till he was 27 years old to emerge as an intelligent and inspiring leader. Whereas Clarence Seedorf wanted to lead when he was 17 years old but always seem to be close but no cigar… You know?

Posted from  Australia

Got to say that Nederland played awfully well in general in Euro 2000. Yes, Nederland should have been tied with the Czech Republic.

But remember when they crushed Yugoslavia? And let’s not forget that Holland absolutely dominated Italy. A great penalty shot save and a bizarre penalty shot miss from Kluivert added up to the big choke. (As were Rijkaard’s odd substitutions - remember when he didn’t put in Pierre van Hooidonk - the tall guy who could head the ball and blast away from afar?)

But the team generally played pretty darn well. And that was different from this cup - when Holland barely hung on against Cote D’Ivoire, and scraped by Serbia.

But heh - at least it also choked with weird substitutions in the crucial game again! yeah tradition!

Posted from  United States

Sorry Jan, also wanted to note that Nederland has to adjust to the fact that Ajax is not ground zero for Dutch voetbal anymore. (as much as it pains me as an Ajax fan - like that Jewish thing, you know)

In the 1970s and 1980s, almost all of the young stars came up through Ajax. But look at the stars now - Robben, Van P came through PSV.

But what I would really like is for the Dutch to expand their league and merge with Belgium - so that we can all watch a few more top flight matches.

Posted from  United States

The 4-3-3 module needs 3 greats midfielders and we don’t have them. Seedorf always sucked in Oranije, Davids has lost his dynamism, Van der Vaart doesn’t defend. Maybe Van Bommel, Sneijder and Schaars? For me the better choice but I think it’s necessary to change, above all against big teams.
Best Holland teams in last 20 years have been in 88, 92, 98/2000 and all of these played with 4-4-1-1 (Gullit behind Van Basten, Bergkamp behind Van Basten, Bergkamp behind Kluivert). This module guarantees a better balance in the midfield where we suffer a lot and greater unforeseeablity in attack.
My favourite line-up?
Van der Sar;
Jaliens, Ooijer, Boulahrouz, de Cler (Mathijsen is often ingenuous and very absent-minded, Van Bronckhorst always scare me);
Castelen, Sneijder, Schaars, Van der Vaart;
Robben;
Huntelaar.

Posted from  Italy

I agree with most things you are saying Samuel Knight - one thing though; Robben came through Groningen and Van Persie in Feyenoord.

Posted from  Sweden

You’re right Van Persie and Kuijt were Feynoord.

But Robben did play for PSV and was sold to Chelsea, wasn’t he?

Posted from  United States

Yeah but he was almost as good as he is now already in Groningen.

Posted from  Sweden

Any formation takes times to make it work. National Teams meet every month or even every 3 months. Not enough time to make the formation work well.

Holland has sooo many talented players, but the whole idea is to belnd them togather in formation and a team chemestry that make them win games and play well. Holland managed to play great football but never won, maybe MVB was trying to squeez by and playing Shitty football and myabe ending up winning. Did that till Playing the Red Card Game vs. Portugal.

Holland’s team looked unorganizes against Ivory Coast, but only in the back. Though the offense was good, specialy in the first 30 minutes.

Today, Holland won 3-0. I have nt seen the game yet …but this team make a great case studies.
Realy, I am so much interested in anaylsing the team, also reading other fans posts.

I am confident that (if Holland as predicted to make to EU08) MVB will finally reach us to a team that is belnded well, organised and ready to play and win some trophies. With talents such as Robben, RVP, RVN, Huntlear, Boulah, Wesely, Van Der Vart and etc, ..Holland will make things happen.

Note that MVB does not have lots of expereince in coaching and managing senior team football. This qualification will give + WC06, he will have JUST enough.

Posted from  United States

@ivan: maybe seedorf always sucked in oranje but since marco’s arrival he haven’t been playing a single game in the national team. he matured lot in-between,he is one of the most important player of milan ac,he deserves to get a chance again.i’m quite sure he will be totally different now. sure,he often underperformed in oranje but now there is no better dutch midfielder. at the time of davids,ronald de boer,cocu and others i thought we didn’t need clarence,but now we really-really need a very experienced,intelligent,hard-working midfielder. like clarence seedorf version 2006. he could be the the turning point beetween the defence and the attack.

Posted from  Hungary

@Fares, agree with you on vanBasten trying to win first and then think about playing beautiful, (although I still think the two can coexcist(?))but im no so confident in the rest of the things you say…i believe that a player is born a leader (or not) and it has little to do with experience (although it helps), in this team there are no real leaders or even personalities…we had a few but vanbasten doenst want them in the team…. i dont believe that experience is the problem with vanBasten, i think hes far to arrogant to change views….he told the dutch press a few days ago that he had chosen a path and that he wont change plans….now my problem is that i think he took the wrong path, im certain hes not gonna change….

@ferenc: amen to that my friend

Posted from  Netherlands