San Marco and Ruud van Gol re-unite

sorry Jan dont want to ’schiet onder je duiven’ all the time, was just so eager to share the good news…

i say: 2 down, one to go…. ill keep dreaming… in the mean time:
RUUD RUUD RUUD!!

Posted from  Netherlands

i’ll keep dreaming too - an oranje 08 built around clarence,ruud and robin van persie. in this case oranje could win the ec.

i was thinking about kuyt - and it might seem bizarre,but i think he could be a defensive midfielder. he’s working like hell,collects balls,etc,but misses the final touch of great strikers. so,he colud play in this role easily. what do you think?

Posted from  Hungary

what hehehehe ….???

no way.. guys you are writing off kuyt far too easily for my taste.

id say hes the 2nd or 3rd best striker we have.

Also next time this year, who knows if ruud van goal would still be in form.. this time, last year, he was absolutely not. I surely would hope he would be. And I definitely do dream of that. But, in my opinion, theres absolutely no guarantee he’ll be performing well in October even. or as well as he is doing now at least.

but im really happy at the “2 down, 1 to go” too. We still need Van Bommel. I suspect Marco knows hes been mistaken, hes just taking his time, and the right one, to fix them.

All of a sudden, we have too many forwards, and too many midfield players.. Who to pick, who to leave out? too many ppl playing the same tihng, in the same position.

Van nistelrooy/huntelaar/kuyt
robben/van persie/vdv
Seedorf/Van Bommel/vdv/sneijder ..

Wish we had a good defensive midfielder. Some good defenders..?

Posted from  Canada

I realize the excitment about getting our top players back but the real problem is van Basten. He had these players for the WC and the results weren’t very impressive. The problem lies with Marcos managerial skills. He could call back all these players, but if he continues to force the players into a system, rather than mold the system around the players, we are going to have the same problems. I’m afraid of Deja Vu. RvN will be substituted mid-match and benched. RvP will be made to play on the wing, (I mean honestly, RvP should be shadow striking), and our midfield will be a jumbled up mess. Marco has got to change his philosophy - he has to stick to his stars(come hell or highwater), and play the players in their natural positions. In short, Marcos coaching and personnel skills will have to be much improved for 2008 Oranje success.

Posted from  United States

Great news to hear Ruud comes back to the national team, although I’d have liked more to hear that Marco had
When he was benched at Manchester last year he was the top scorer of the team so maybe he was not in the form he is having right now but he wasn’t playing bad. Ferguson made a terrible mistake.

For me the team should play a 4-4-2 formation with Ruud and Persie up front.
I would use van Persie in the same position he plays at Arsenal with Ruud as the central striker near the box.

In my opinion the team should be built around Ruud, Persie, Robben (if fit), Seedorf, Bommel, Edwin.

my problem with oranje is that we have good midfielder and strikers but the central defence is… we don’t have players behind like fdb,stam,etc only very mediocre ones. ok emmanuelson,heitinga,kromkamp,van bronckhorst are all right,but the center… matthijsen? mot convincing at all. boulah? for doing the butcher job he’s good but creating… who else could be there?

Posted from  Hungary

RVN Van Persie

VDV
RObben Sneijder Van Bommel

Van Bronk MAthijsen Boulahrouz

VAn Der Sar

Posted from  Canada

Not sure how many of you will agree, but the 4-2-3-1 followed by France in WC-06 ws one of the most compact and workable formations in real life. If I remember correctly, the lineup was:

Barthez
Sagnol Thuram Gallas Abidal
Vieira Makelele
Malouda Zidane Ribery
Henry

Oraanje can also think of a similar format, because:
- 4-3-3 does not work really well, because Oraanje midfielders are always outnumbered by 4 to 3 or 5 to 3.
- Not many Oraanje strikers relish the center forward in 4-3-3.
- There are no good center backs in Oraanje now. Fully agree with Ferenc, Boulah and Mathijssen are not sufficient. Presence of two defensive midfielders will help tightening the hole.
- The central attacking midfielder would have the license to join the striker in the penalty box, but the central striker would be the sole recipient of all the crosses. Most importantly the striker need not make room for the wingers to score.

One sample:

van der Sar
Heitinga Mathijsen Boulahrouz vanBronckhorst
Van Bommel Seedorf
Sneijder vanPersie vanderVaart
vanNistelrooy

Agreed, the defensive wall is nowhere compared to Thuram,Gallas,Vieira,Makelele, but vanBommel and Seedorf are two good players who can defend physically as well as switch to attack instantly.Goose is right when he mentions about vanBommel’s worth as a defensive midfielder.

Comparing vanPersie to Zidane is nothing short of a sacrilege :-), but he is the most complete footballer in Oraanje today, period. With due respects to Seedorf, the Rossoneri man is assisted by players of Pirlo, Gattuso and Kaka’s calibre. Without that a self sustaining attacking Seedorf loses a little sting.

The only genuine problem is where to slot Robben. vanderVaart does the left footed job reasonably well. Both Sneijder and him are effective midfielders cum attackers. THis is absolutely necessary for the format to switch between 4-5-1, 4-4-2 and even 4-3-3 (what the heck!! :-)). Maybe Robben can be interchanged with vdv.

Please feel free to sound your comments on this.

Posted from  United States

@PR: nice one mate!
well, you struck a sensitive cord here..

you know that in Holland the 4-3-3 system is close to divine…its the system that gave Holland great reknown all over the world and brought succes to Oranje and Ajax trough many years..
vanBasten has extra special feelings about 4-3-3 cause his from Ajax and was brought up as a kid (like many did and still are in Holland) with 4-3-3..always playing with 2 wingers who need to get the pitch wide..ofcourse Cruyff is anotherone who has had great succes both as a player and as a manager with this system..(vanGaal later in 95)

when vanBasten was installed he told the press he wanted attacking, pressing football with the accent on ball possesion..here he means: 4-3-3…so he has been selecting players specialy for the system (ie wingers)

now there has always been discussions on wich system to play and if you have to find a system that suits your players are players that suit the system..
4-3-3 can be a great system, its a certainty for attacking football BUT if you dont have the material to fill it all then you should change the system…im sure vanBasten has already played other systems (Bulg. away)..
the bottleneck will always be midfield, you need ‘total football’on midfield, attacking , defending, taking the wings… im mean, Robben plays much more as a midfielder at Chelsea than he does for Oranje..i mean , were does that leave ‘the system’, its just numbers..

btw: at this moment in time vdVaart is a better and more complete player then vanPersie

Posted from  Netherlands

Good post Prabal! I’ll get back to that…

Posted from  Australia

@goose: sorry,but i really think van persie is a genious,and better than vdv. since dennis bergkamp i haven’t seen such a fantastic dutch player (btw,i really would like to see him one day at barca),vdv is very multifacial but robin got everything - he can ve winger,finisher,shadow striker,number 10. but: he - also almost everybody - is better in 422 rhan in 433. it’s a pity that marco loves so much this old fashioned 433. actually,the 4231 would be perfect - real plays the same system and ruud excells in it. but: seedorf is definitely is an attacking midfielder. so,i would say that we should put shaars or de zeeuw in the defence for gaving a visionary ther,and the oranje should be like this:
vds - kromkamp,heitinga,schaars,emmanuelson - dezeeuw,van bommel - seedorf,van persie,vdv (sneijder)-rvn

with replacements like robben,affelay,huntelaar and boulah

Posted from  Hungary

Well,finally van Basten admitted his big mistake is forgetting about his big ego. That has to be an achievement for him but I really he learned the lesson and hands Ruud the importance that he has to have in the team as well as Seedorf because since Seedorf´s come back to the team van Basten has used as a bench player preferring Landzaat and Afellay above Seedorf. Some players have more importance than others, that is the true and Ruud is one of them, perhaps someday Huntelaar or Kuyt might reach that level but today they are still far from Ruud´s level. I am very happy to read this news. Ruud-Ruud-Ruud-Ruud!!!!!!

Again, this is the right one!:

Well,finally van Basten admitted his big mistake and is forgetting about his big ego. That has to be an achievement for him but I really hope he learned the lesson and hands Ruud the importance that he has to have in the team as well as Seedorf because since Seedorf´s come back to the team van Basten has used him only as a bench player preferring Landzaat and Afellay above Seedorf. Some players have more importance than others, that is the truth and Ruud is one of them, perhaps someday Huntelaar or Kuyt might reach that level but today they are still far from Ruud´s level. I am very happy to read this news. Ruud-Ruud-Ruud-Ruud!!!!!!

Great formation Prabal.. I’ll swtich mathijsen/boulah with Bouma for the moment. I think bouma is in a much better form than those two at the moment.

maybe also sneijder in the place of seedorf, hence put sneijder as our true playmaker.. his playing reminds me of fabregas’ and this is where ud see fabregas play, and where u see seedorf play in milan, as an attacking midfielder.

so:

heitinga, boulah, bouma, van bronckhorst(emanuelsson)

van bommel, sneijder

seedorf, van persie, van der vaart

van gol

with three great attacking options waiting to come on : robben, huntelaar, kuyt)

I hope someday we’ll get to see this formation u talked about. Im getting sick and tired of 4-3-3 honestly… cuz we really dont have the players for it. And for many reasons in my opinion, theres not a big diff between a 4-2-3-1, and a 4-3-3 .. but the former will suit our players way better.

Goose: you are very right when u say vdv is a complete player.. If it were me, id make that guy captain, as he should be.. he’s been magnificent lately.

Posted from  Canada

Thanks a lot for your responses to my earlier post. Goose is absolutely spot on about the classical significance of the 4-3-3 format and the glory it brought to the Dutch team. It is definitely a true attacking formation wherein the wingers spread the opposition full backs apart and float deadly crosses for the striker. Barcelona has been using this formation pretty successfully (albeit this may not be their best season).

But as you would agree:
- We do not have wingers of the same calibre now. Forget Johnny Rep and Rensenbrink, we do not have a Marc Overmars now. Again Robben is more of an attacking midfielder than a pure winger (I am open to correction on this). Without wingers who can stretch the defence (and not necessarily compete with the striker in the D) the 4-3-3 reduces its effectiveness.

- The kind of allround creativity needed to make 4-3-3 a success (this includes the complete fluidity of motion between midfield + attack and above all an understanding of each others’ responsibilities) is more difficult to cultivate now. Rinus Michels used to say that the left back cannot fall asleep when I am discussing strategies for the right wing (correct me on this :-)).
The golden generation of 74 and 95 had most of the players playing under the Ajax umbrella, so the synergy was much more natural and less imposed.

Goose I really liked this “were does that leave ‘the system’, its just numbers..”

Rami…I am sorry to miss out Emanuelson. He is an exciting left back who can move much more smoothly to the attack as needed.Your comparison of Sneijder to fabregas is pretty interesting. Both are short statured players, comfortable in anchoring the midfield and have good shots of both the feet. Fabregas also is the cornerstone of Arsene Wenger’s 4-5-1.

@ferenc: i spoke spec. about ‘this moment in time’, i agree that vanPersie has almost limitless talent but its vdVaart who has grown really a lot during the last 2 seasons with Hsv, not only cause vanPersie had been injured a lot this season but mainly cause vdVaart had become a real man at Hsv, hes the captain of a team who were fighting not to go down..hes the man who actually saved them… vdVaart is the best player in the bundesliga and i think at this moment in time hes more of a complete player than vanPersie (its a bit embarresment of riches with all those great attack left footers in Oranje)

@PR: comment about Robben is true, always thought of him as a classic winger but now that he plays for Chelsea hes more like a attacking midfielder, behind the lonely Drogba..
the comment about Michels is also true, thats what he actually said…think the secret to it all (4-3-3) is total football…the midfield is very crusial, all positions should be interchangeable(?)… i mean what is a winger? it can be a defender running up, it can be a midfield player..
i think 4-3-3 is still a very interesting system, esp. for us dutch, but we have to be realistic aswell, just play your best defenders-midfieldplayers and attackers and make the best team/system around them

gtrz

Posted from  Netherlands

Well done mates. We should take over the Van Basten job :-). The Blog Committee. We’ll split his salaries evenly, ok? I’ll email my mate at the KNVB.

I fully agree with the Overmars/Rep and Robben comparison. To me, a real winger is the man who takes on his opponent and makes it till the back line, to cross the ball into the box. The Robben’s of this world are players positioned on the wingers’ spot, but they will dribble from the line to the center of the pitch, trying to combine, to shoot or to further dribble to the goal. Different type of player. So, using Babel or Robben or Kuyt in a 4-3-3 system doesn’t mean you’re actually playing the Old School 4-3-3… If you know what I mean? It’s becoming a lot of rhetoric, this 4-3-3 thing.

Even with 5-4-1 you can play dominant attacking football, it’s the EXECUTION that counts. And bloody hell, Marco… You played in a 4-4-2 AC Milan and Oranje (’88).

Now, Marco says he doesn’t want to waste time on experimenting. Fair enough. But when he started, he should’ve, because now we’ll never know if it would have worked… Not handy…

Sorry guys, ranting and raving…

Posted from  Australia

think the last real winger we had was Overmars..how i always loved to see him play..no fancy tricks, no diving, just do as much as you can with the abilitys you have wich was speed and 2 footed.. he had nothing do do un midfield only to start a run to the backline..hes crosses were fine and he scored many goals coming inside and scoring by the first post…that kind of player almost askes for 4-3-3, cause than it gives you many advadges over your opponant..remember, outside Holland no one ever plays 4-3-3, its not an easy system to defend…
but like i said before; first the players, than the system…if we have good wingers why not, if we dont why bother..

grzt

Posted from  Netherlands

now cg of our discussion belongs to the system-fit wingers.Surely Robben can’t be new Overmars.
So how for, Persie at the lfet and Vaart on Right?
Allowing Zenden scarce time left flank cover, let Seedorf pick No. 10 and Bommel back;
Would you agree a 433 sysem alive at,
heitinga, boulah, bouma, van bronckhorst;
Bommel, Seedorf, Zenden,
Vaart, Ruud, Persie?

Posted from  Thailand