Comments on: Oranje, where are we? An analysis… http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html World Cup 2010 - South Africa, Oranje, Nederlands Elftal, Eredivisie, Marco van Basten, Dutch football, The Netherlands Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:05:34 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Bob http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-116395 Bob Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:36:32 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-116395 JVB 21, great analysis! When I think about the truly great managers and coaches involved in professional sports here in the US, every one of them made a difference because they changed the mentality of their athletes. Vince Lombardi, the great American football coach of the Green Bay Packers, made an ordinary team extraordinary by changing player attitudes about the sport. Bill Parcells (football), John Wooden (college basketball), Red Auerbach (professional basketball)--all instilled in their athletes the will to win, to perform at the peak of their potential, to work as a team for team success, not individual success, and take pride in their work every time they came onto the field or court. From what I have read, Rinus Michels was that kind of coach/manager--placing high expectations on attitude and performance, and intolerable of anything less than the best an athlete had to give. To achieve such a level of success, the coach must have several qualities--respect of his players; a drive to win, win,win; an ability to intimidate while at the same time encouraging an athlete to perform at the highest potential; a complete understanding of how to coach (not play, coach!)the sport and its athletes; a non-negotiable attitude about doing it his way without convincing evidence to change; and a willingness to bench the "stars" if they do not meet expectations. In other words, a martinet with a heart. It may be that the "modern" Dutch footballer is not able to respond to a coach with these qualities, therefore the recent disappointing performances. van Basten appears to have only one or two of these qualities. de Haan, Hiddink do have these qualities, thus the difference in success rates as compared to van Basten. So it goes. JVB 21, great analysis! When I think about the truly great managers and coaches involved in professional sports here in the US, every one of them made a difference because they changed the mentality of their athletes. Vince Lombardi, the great American football coach of the Green Bay Packers, made an ordinary team extraordinary by changing player attitudes about the sport. Bill Parcells (football), John Wooden (college basketball), Red Auerbach (professional basketball)–all instilled in their athletes the will to win, to perform at the peak of their potential, to work as a team for team success, not individual success, and take pride in their work every time they came onto the field or court.

From what I have read, Rinus Michels was that kind of coach/manager–placing high expectations on attitude and performance, and intolerable of anything less than the best an athlete had to give. To achieve such a level of success, the coach must have several qualities–respect of his players; a drive to win, win,win; an ability to intimidate while at the same time encouraging an athlete to perform at the highest potential; a complete understanding of how to coach (not play, coach!)the sport and its athletes; a non-negotiable attitude about doing it his way without convincing evidence to change; and a willingness to bench the “stars” if they do not meet expectations. In other words, a martinet with a heart. It may be that the “modern” Dutch footballer is not able to respond to a coach with these qualities, therefore the recent disappointing performances. van Basten appears to have only one or two of these qualities. de Haan, Hiddink do have these qualities, thus the difference in success rates as compared to van Basten. So it goes.

]]> By: JVB21 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-116216 JVB21 Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:48:56 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-116216 Ahh geez, I could go on and on like a street corner preacher on this topic, it's the very thing that makes my blood boil. Due to a lack of time I'll keep this short and potentially add later. First, the very structure of the domestic leagues that high level players are involved in AND more importantly the shortage of time the national coaches have with their high level players seriously detracts from the level of team play and development during qualification. National coaches are nothing more of substitute teachers at this point. This is not meant as a "pass" on MVB performance. Second, (or third depending on how particular your all are about run on sentences) the very nature of the game (football) and the potential for a "nobody" to win compounds the first point. Particularly when you add the heart and will of the underdog. Which brings us back to Jan and Bobs point. There comes a point when you have to throw the idea of beautiful football out the window. As and idea and a principle it's the top, certainly, but at the dance it's only the gown if you don't know the steps. Incredibly, Oranje has the beautiful gown, and knows the steps better then most, but would rather look good then get laid/shag. As previously mentioned we lack the mentality of winning, we lack the leadership to generate that team mentality, and aside from a small few we have no fire in our bellies. The difference between your best game ever and your worst game ever wasn't physical, it was mental. Personally, I'd add a zero to Jan's venom percentage. The difference between players physically at the professional level is 5%. The mental difference on the other hand is 50%. MVB doesn't posses the leadership skills to squeeze the most out of that 50%. At this point my fingers are crossed that the player do the squeezing. Ahh geez, I could go on and on like a street corner preacher on this topic, it’s the very thing that makes my blood boil. Due to a lack of time I’ll keep this short and potentially add later.

First, the very structure of the domestic leagues that high level players are involved in AND more importantly the shortage of time the national coaches have with their high level players seriously detracts from the level of team play and development during qualification. National coaches are nothing more of substitute teachers at this point. This is not meant as a “pass” on MVB performance. Second, (or third depending on how particular your all are about run on sentences) the very nature of the game (football) and the potential for a “nobody” to win compounds the first point. Particularly when you add the heart and will of the underdog. Which brings us back to Jan and Bobs point.

There comes a point when you have to throw the idea of beautiful football out the window. As and idea and a principle it’s the top, certainly, but at the dance it’s only the gown if you don’t know the steps. Incredibly, Oranje has the beautiful gown, and knows the steps better then most, but would rather look good then get laid/shag. As previously mentioned we lack the mentality of winning, we lack the leadership to generate that team mentality, and aside from a small few we have no fire in our bellies.

The difference between your best game ever and your worst game ever wasn’t physical, it was mental. Personally, I’d add a zero to Jan’s venom percentage. The difference between players physically at the professional level is 5%. The mental difference on the other hand is 50%. MVB doesn’t posses the leadership skills to squeeze the most out of that 50%. At this point my fingers are crossed that the player do the squeezing.

]]> By: Jan http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-115869 Jan Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:37:15 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-115869 Fantastic topic Bob and you're spot on! This is something that has been bothering me for a long time (and others as well). And that's why people call the Dutch eredivisie the Mickey Mouse competition. It's too soft, too sweet... Too many one-two's and not enough sharp challenges. Or, to quote Dirk Kuyt after Feyenoord - Ajax: "I saw young talent Luigi Bruins play. Exciting player. But in England, they would have kicked him through the ad-boards after 10 minutes..." The desperate will to win... Germans have it, yes. I think the English have it (they don't win because of other lacking elements). Italians have it. The Greek had it in 2004. Sometimes you can even see it enter a team. Like Australia in the WC2006 (the Croatia and Japan games)... I've seen it in Oranje as well. The 1983 away game in Dublin (Gullit and Van Basten came on to turn the match around), in 1988, semi finals against West Germany... JC sold Koeman and Vaantje to PSV because they lacked it. And signed Wouters and Blind coz they did have it. I think this is the missing link in Oranje. I think Sar, Bommel, Sneijder and Van Nistelrooy have "it". Most others don't. And I know exactly what you mean, Bob. All players "want to win, blablabla" but it's that extra 5% venom... The venom Gerrard has, Puyol, Oliver Kahn, Matterazzi, Rooney, Inzaghi... In the ol' days, we had Suurbier, Israel, Van Hanegem, Neeskens... We had Wouters, Van Tiggelen, Van Aerle, Van Breukelen, Frank de Boer, Winston Bogarde, Cocu... Even Rijkaard lacked it when he was younger... Today, it's something that's lacking. It's mentality, it's focus, it's NLP, it's street-smarts... Telling for me, was the WC1994 in the US. Oranje was ousted by Brazil in the QF's after a tight game (Brazil scored one off side goal and a lucky free-kick winner that wasn't a free-kick at all). Advocaat - team manager in 1994 - arrived at Schiphol airport and said he was satisfied and proud to have finished in the last 8.... WHAT? And this aspect is what seperates the boys from the men. Why some make it in the big leagues (Van Nistelrooy, Stam, Cocu) and some don't or won't (Robben? Sneijder? Drenthe? De Ridder? Babel?). Too many mental question marks... In Holland, life is great. You can kick a ball, when you're a kid... Or play games on the PS3, go to a discoteque, listen to the ipod, watch movies, surf the net, go out with your girl, sail a boat, surf, ride a bike, play golf... In Brazil, Argentina, South Africa it's different. I see it here in Oz as well.... The sports mentality here is phenomenal. It's about crushing the opponent's ego, not about winning even... We miss that... Sad but true. Good point... Others care to comment? Fantastic topic Bob and you’re spot on! This is something that has been bothering me for a long time (and others as well). And that’s why people call the Dutch eredivisie the Mickey Mouse competition. It’s too soft, too sweet… Too many one-two’s and not enough sharp challenges. Or, to quote Dirk Kuyt after Feyenoord – Ajax: “I saw young talent Luigi Bruins play. Exciting player. But in England, they would have kicked him through the ad-boards after 10 minutes…”

The desperate will to win… Germans have it, yes. I think the English have it (they don’t win because of other lacking elements). Italians have it. The Greek had it in 2004. Sometimes you can even see it enter a team. Like Australia in the WC2006 (the Croatia and Japan games)…

I’ve seen it in Oranje as well. The 1983 away game in Dublin (Gullit and Van Basten came on to turn the match around), in 1988, semi finals against West Germany… JC sold Koeman and Vaantje to PSV because they lacked it. And signed Wouters and Blind coz they did have it.

I think this is the missing link in Oranje. I think Sar, Bommel, Sneijder and Van Nistelrooy have “it”. Most others don’t. And I know exactly what you mean, Bob. All players “want to win, blablabla” but it’s that extra 5% venom… The venom Gerrard has, Puyol, Oliver Kahn, Matterazzi, Rooney, Inzaghi…

In the ol’ days, we had Suurbier, Israel, Van Hanegem, Neeskens… We had Wouters, Van Tiggelen, Van Aerle, Van Breukelen, Frank de Boer, Winston Bogarde, Cocu… Even Rijkaard lacked it when he was younger… Today, it’s something that’s lacking. It’s mentality, it’s focus, it’s NLP, it’s street-smarts…

Telling for me, was the WC1994 in the US. Oranje was ousted by Brazil in the QF’s after a tight game (Brazil scored one off side goal and a lucky free-kick winner that wasn’t a free-kick at all). Advocaat – team manager in 1994 – arrived at Schiphol airport and said he was satisfied and proud to have finished in the last 8…. WHAT?

And this aspect is what seperates the boys from the men. Why some make it in the big leagues (Van Nistelrooy, Stam, Cocu) and some don’t or won’t (Robben? Sneijder? Drenthe? De Ridder? Babel?). Too many mental question marks…

In Holland, life is great. You can kick a ball, when you’re a kid… Or play games on the PS3, go to a discoteque, listen to the ipod, watch movies, surf the net, go out with your girl, sail a boat, surf, ride a bike, play golf… In Brazil, Argentina, South Africa it’s different. I see it here in Oz as well…. The sports mentality here is phenomenal. It’s about crushing the opponent’s ego, not about winning even…

We miss that… Sad but true. Good point… Others care to comment?

]]> By: Bob http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-115737 Bob Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:56:18 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-115737 Jan, this was a terrific analysis, and the responses have been very interesting as well. As I have read the various comments, certain thoughts developed regarding the issue of motivation. Do Dutch footballers have the drive, determination and commitment to achieve success at the highest level of international competition? Do Dutch footballers define success differently from athletes of other countries, such as Brazil or Germany? When the Netherlands national team loses in major tournaments, do the athletes feel emotional pain from such losses? Would there, indeed, be any difference to the high level professional footballer in Holland if the team won? Would the fans love the team less? Would the athlete make more money, or be more attractive on the transfer market? How, if at all, would the athlete's life change due to a win, rather than a loss? In essence, it may not make a difference at all whether or not the Dutch team wins the next EC, and that fact in itself means something significant regarding motivation of individual players and team performance. The Netherlands' seems stuck on the philosophy, so well expressed in David Winner's wonder book BRILLIANT ORANGE, that beautiful football is more important than winning football. Cruijff has often expressed the thought that it did not matter that the Netherlands lost to Germany in '74, because the Dutch played wonderfully attractive football and are the team that people remember from that tournament. So, second place, third place, fourth place, quater-finals, all are OK as long as the football is BEAUTIFUL! If that is the mission, then the Dutch have succeeded as to that definition. Yet again, Winners suggests that the Dutch were possibly the "best" team in each of the major tournaments from 1990 to 2000, yet failed to win any one of them--often losing, by the way, on penalty kicks. Once again, if that is the mission and attitude of the coaches and players, then the results reflect the motivation. I again ask the question, is that why the matches are played? Would the results have been different if the player "ambition" had been to WIN, WIN, WIN. The Germans and Brazilians have that motivation, and their record speaks for itself. Have the Dutch become too "soft", lacking in motivation necessary to perfect skills, tactics and to develop highest level of physical conditioning? I do not know the answer, but am interested in the opinion of others. Jan, this was a terrific analysis, and the responses have been very interesting as well. As I have read the various comments, certain thoughts developed regarding the issue of motivation. Do Dutch footballers have the drive, determination and commitment to achieve success at the highest level of international competition? Do Dutch footballers define success differently from athletes of other countries, such as Brazil or Germany? When the Netherlands national team loses in major tournaments, do the athletes feel emotional pain from such losses?

Would there, indeed, be any difference to the high level professional footballer in Holland if the team won? Would the fans love the team less? Would the athlete make more money, or be more attractive on the transfer market? How, if at all, would the athlete’s life change due to a win, rather than a loss? In essence, it may not make a difference at all whether or not the Dutch team wins the next EC, and that fact in itself means something significant regarding motivation of individual players and team performance.

The Netherlands’ seems stuck on the philosophy, so well expressed in David Winner’s wonder book BRILLIANT ORANGE, that beautiful football is more important than winning football. Cruijff has often expressed the thought that it did not matter that the Netherlands lost to Germany in ‘74, because the Dutch played wonderfully attractive football and are the team that people remember from that tournament.

So, second place, third place, fourth place, quater-finals, all are OK as long as the football is BEAUTIFUL! If that is the mission, then the Dutch have succeeded as to that definition. Yet again, Winners suggests that the Dutch were possibly the “best” team in each of the major tournaments from 1990 to 2000, yet failed to win any one of them–often losing, by the way, on penalty kicks. Once again, if that is the mission and attitude of the coaches and players, then the results reflect the motivation.

I again ask the question, is that why the matches are played? Would the results have been different if the player “ambition” had been to WIN, WIN, WIN. The Germans and Brazilians have that motivation, and their record speaks for itself. Have the Dutch become too “soft”, lacking in motivation necessary to perfect skills, tactics and to develop highest level of physical conditioning? I do not know the answer, but am interested in the opinion of others.

]]> By: Jan http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114599 Jan Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:11:24 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114599 @Goose... good point, I should have included Oranje's record against big teams... They all say they are hungry to play big teams, but based on what... Hhmmm.... @Goose… good point, I should have included Oranje’s record against big teams… They all say they are hungry to play big teams, but based on what… Hhmmm….

]]> By: goose http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114551 goose Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:04:40 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114551 Nice one Jan; about your comment on growth; think its just the individuel players that have grown and with it their level of play in Oranje... as a team there has been zero growth, one of my main problems with vanBasten on realism; maybe its the one positive thing that for a change we wont start the EC thinking we have a good change of winning..kind of a underdog situation where you can grow as a team during the Champs.. on other big teams; you should have shown the results we had v big teams...Italy-loss; port-loss; Arg-draw... the german comment really hurts btw! those germans are strong again ..*&(*&*%$@$#@$#& @marc; did you mix up Seedorf and vBronckhorst (left-right?), think youll need a replacement for Robben, he has lost it, pretty offensive line-up sure you wanna play like that against the big boys?? @rami; amen!! about mentality; Sneijder told VI magazine that the problem was that nobody had any guts (geen lef), nobody dared taking risks... "Some small nation delivering the goods consistently only for the month of june/july 2008."; you mean Holland!!??? haha grtz Nice one Jan;

about your comment on growth; think its just the individuel players that have grown and with it their level of play in Oranje… as a team there has been zero growth, one of my main problems with vanBasten

on realism; maybe its the one positive thing that for a change we wont start the EC thinking we have a good change of winning..kind of a underdog situation where you can grow as a team during the Champs..

on other big teams; you should have shown the results we had v big teams…Italy-loss; port-loss; Arg-draw… the german comment really hurts btw! those germans are strong again ..*&(*&*%$@$#@$#&

@marc; did you mix up Seedorf and vBronckhorst (left-right?), think youll need a replacement for Robben, he has lost it, pretty offensive line-up sure you wanna play like that against the big boys??

@rami; amen!!
about mentality; Sneijder told VI magazine that the problem was that nobody had any guts (geen lef), nobody dared taking risks…

“Some small nation delivering the goods consistently only for the month of june/july 2008.”; you mean Holland!!??? haha

grtz

]]> By: Jan http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114367 Jan Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:03:26 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114367 Thanks Tjeerd... Thanks Tjeerd…

]]> By: tjeerd http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114340 tjeerd Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:39:18 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114340 I enjoyed that post Jan I enjoyed that post Jan

]]> By: Jan http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114238 Jan Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:33:28 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114238 Yeah, Marc I think with our offensive skills a line up like this should work. You put pressure on the opponent, who never play more than 2 strikers anyway. it's a gutsy line up but I would love to see this in real life... Yeah, Marc I think with our offensive skills a line up like this should work. You put pressure on the opponent, who never play more than 2 strikers anyway. it’s a gutsy line up but I would love to see this in real life…

]]> By: Marc http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html/comment-page-1#comment-114190 Marc Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:15:45 +0000 http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/1/oranje-where-are-we-an-analysis.html#comment-114190 p.s if he makes teh following players stick together and learn to play with one an other with well thought up tactics we can have a good summer. peace guys. p.s if he makes teh following players stick together and learn to play with one an other with well thought up tactics we can have a good summer. peace guys.

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