Oranje draws against boring England

“I don’t know if he’ll be part of the group against Russia in February” … you mean against romania?

Again, I think he played really well. I mean, we have to agree at least that this is probably the first time in many months that our midfield manages to perform this well. No coincidence! This is definitely the “Seedorf” effect. I’d even go on to say that his presence made even both landzaat and schaars perform as well as they did.
So in any future fixture, I’d really hope to see a midfield built around Seedorf, even if that means shuffling around with vdv and sneijder and adjust them to make them fit in the formation. Let van basten try to make both vdv/sneijder and seedorf play at the same time. Im sure both sneijder and seedorf can fill schaars role efficiently .

Concerning van nistelrooy, I don’t think he would have made a difference, regardless of his weekend performance. I believe our lack of precision upfront and ability to finish things off stems from elsewhere. The formation maybe, I’m not sure. Every time our team are on the offense and on to something, the final delivery is awful or they lack creativity. So again Im not sure how Van Nistelrooy would have made any of that any different. On the contrary, he is the kind of striker that needs precise timed deliveries, a luxury we fail to produce most of the times.

We should just shift to 4-4-2, and just give the old 4-3-3 a rest. I dont think it will ever work effectively with van basten and the current players. They are already used to playing in 4-4-2 systems, so why complicate things further for the players. And most importantly I think we would get the best performance out of them this way.
We have to many good strikers and playmakers, too little wingers. I’d love to see a Kuyt/Van Nistelrooy-Van Persie/robben partnership up front, with all vdv-seedorf-schaars-landzaat for example in midfield.
With the right formation and combination, we would really see much greater performances from Oranje.

Till then, Im satisfied with 1-1.

Posted from  Russian Federation

One more thing, a bit off topic though.. Chelsea’s formation 4-4-2 rapidly chianging to a 4-4-3 is the kind of thing we need in my opinion, with Robben and Van Persie both key elements to make the process shift effectively..

Alas, VB has a big ego, and dreams about the old good days too much.

Posted from  Russian Federation

Okay I know this would probably never happen but I would love to see VDVaart Sneijder and Seedorf in the starting luneup. What do you think of this guys?.

Kuyt
Van Persie

Robben Seedorf Sneijder VDVaart

Van B Mathijsen Boul Kromp

I know this makes us a little vulnerable in the back but will it not reap the benefits?

Posted from  Canada

Went to the game in A-dam arena. Don’t know what everyone is cheering about? England sucks and so do we! The team is plain, transparent and hopeless without Van Persie. Seedorf? What the f*ck? He held the ball longer than Robben and had even less results. Emanuellson looked good in the first half, but Kuyt, V. Varrt, and Robben, not working. At this point I would be willing to start Venegoor V Hesselink at least he will grind it out all game long. Moving to Liverpool has made Kuyt’s head big which may account for how slow and lazy he was. This is the “new look” of our once respected Oranje? Were F**KED! Get rid of Van Basten, get Ruud and Van Bommel back and restore our presence in the International football world! Anyone that thinks the presence of Clarence Seedorf in the line-up did anything to improve the quality of Oranje under-performance should watch the game again and turn off the commentary of the english sportscasters. Jan, if our team keeps playing like this, which is inevitable unless Van Basten is sacked; there won’t be anything left to talk about in the 08 Euro’s. Anyway, the site is great but our team is not. Hup Holland

Well, there ya go… An eye witness. I must say, the VI site and AD-site were not really enthusiastic about the performance. And that change from 4-4-2 t0 4-4-3 at Chelsea… That could get Mourinho suspended you know! Illegal

Posted from  Australia

Yes, it is van Bastens fault that there arent any good Dutch players. Van Bommel is so wack that I get nightmares. Sure, van Nistelrooy is good, but I’m not sure he would have done a better job than Kuyt or Huntelaar yesterday.

Posted from  Sweden

1-1 against a lack lustre England. Where exactly are we going wrong? Is it really the fact that we don’t have effective wingers like Marc Overmars of yesteryears or are we simply not gelling? And the three up front, surely Van Persie should be part of the setup, but then where does Robben play? Somebody answer this question and help Van Basten put us back with the great teams. At present we’re poor and seem to be without innovation

Posted from  Switzerland

At least it’s not a lost, but there does not seems to be the construction of a world class team that can win euro 2008.

chelsea often changes from 4-4-2 to 3-5-2 with boularouz changing from right-back to become the third centre back, that seems to work there… but dnt no if it can work for netherlands

@ HUP really like your team, but the defense will suffer!!

Suspended for what? whats wrong and illegal with a 442 – 433 shift in formation during play?

Misha,i still heavily insist that Seedorf’s contribution was vital. English commentary or not!!
Our midfield yesterday worked against the likes of Lampard and Gerrard and Cole, whether we’d like to admit it or not. And it was really not difficult noticing Seedorf’s quiet but considerable effect to the team’s performance. He brings experience and strength that all the rest of the players can only dream of achieving and having. Be objective and at least give him this much.

Our team is still not up to the task.. I definitely agree, and especially not ready enough for euro08.
But please dont come and charm me also with Van Nistelrooy and Van Bommel. Comparing both Oranje’s performances in germany in the summer and yesterdays, I’m sorry to tell you this but I absolutely do not see the difference between Lanzaat and Van Bommel. And as far as Van the Man is concerned, he has a really great team in Real Madrid supporting and creating chances for him so that he could score the way he does. And the way things are and look at the moment for Oranje, Im sure he will not receive the same support as he does in Madrid. If you watch a Real Madrid match, you’ll see how many opportunities he misses.. but it doesnt really matter in the end because hes getting plenty of, and will eventually manage to score.
With Oranje, its absolutely different. we all saw what happened in germany. He got 1-2 chances only in all three matches.

The players we have are fine. Its the system we use, the formation we stubbornly decide to stick with that is letting us down over and over again. Kuyt, my dear friends, who most of you are still cursing him from yesterdays performance, is already one of the elites at Liverpool. Why? Simply because he does not need to play at the right there like Van Basten persistently insists on making him do. Kuyt is a striker, he play up front, at the center, alongside ‘another’ striker.
As long as Van Basten is gonna keep on molding the players to fit the formation, to fit his stupid naive dream of the old glorious days, and not do what realistically should be done, which is mold the formation to fit the players, we’re gonna keep on losing and underperforming.
We have great players. Kuyt is amazing. So are robben, van persie, vdv, sneijder, seedorf, boulahrouz, van nistelrooy and huntelaar. We just need to use them right.

Posted from  Russian Federation

1 interesting thing: when oranje had results in the past (88,98),we always played in 442 (88: with gullit and van basten,98:with bergkamp and kluivert or overmars). the famous 433 worked only in the 70s and at ajax in the mid 90s. of course,michels and hiddink didn’t care too much about formations,and it worked really well.

Posted from  Hungary

Van Basten needs to be sacked. His team selection and his ideals of playing a traditional dutch system 4-3-3 simply does not work. Van Basten’s 4-3-3 with a defence midfielder doing a holding Job has effectively created 5 defenders and less men for the attack. No wonder the dutch struggle to dominate games and play attractive football! U can see this by how little support we have for our centre forwards in and around the box! Look at stijn Schaars against england- he was missing for 90 minutes in this pointless role similar to Cocu played at the world cup! No wonder RVN is always frustrated playing for holland with such a lack of support. Its too easy for the opposition when they only facing one striker in target position. In the end a frustrated RVN had to come searching for the ball leaving nodbody upfront. Holland only have to look back at World Cup 1998 and when they did line up to a 4-4-2 formation, qualfication for the tournament and progression to the Semi’s was good. Here is what i believe the ducth team should be and my reasons!

Goal – Van der Sar,(Stekelenburg Sub Goalie as he is Holland’s future No.1).

Defence – Urby Emanueson (Left Back), Heitinga (perhaps Hollands most composed and precise passing defender)alongside Boulahrouz (to give strengh and prescene), Nigel de Jong (right back although it’s not his prefferend position).

Defence Subs: Mathijsen, Ooijer, Van Bronckhurst

Midfield: Maduro (good passer and the ablity to control the tempo a must for a holding midfielder, add his defensive work to this too). Alongside although i have my fears about his performances in big game such as last years champions league fianl teams van Bommel (he can give drive and passion to you’re play and every midfield needs this + his creativty) I also feel he needs to be one of two central midfielders rather than one of three as it gives him more responsibility – Robben left wing (although i feel he needs to look up more for a pass or cross but he brings urgency to the dutch team unlike most players). on the right van persie (man of the momment) – i’d allow him to cut in side to drop in behind the strkers from time to time.

Subs – van der vaart (a move to hamburg has not helped his claim to get back on track to be that awesome player he should be), Sneijder (interchangeable with van bommel depending on who you’re playing), schaars (his position in the england game didn’t allow him to reflect his ability), Boateng, Mendes da Silva, allefay

I’d like to see Guizman (if eligble), Ismail Aissati and Jeffrey Sarpong feature at some stage

Stikers – Huntelaar (what a talent and rudely deprived of a world cup place. van basten of all people should know dutch players are most dangerous in their early years! look a kluivert scoring the champs league winner 95 and van basten himself helping the dutch lift euro 88) – Alongside RVN (not really a good footballer but a real predator) – let huntelaar play the football and RVN score the goals.

Subs – Kuijt (i’m not so convinced about his international ability, i’ve seen him miss to many chances for Holland although i must say he is not a right sided forward!), babel, Hesselink (his use in dutch team as a target man is about the only tactic van basten has got right).

I’d like to see Kluivert return to form you just can’t deny his technique and clever link up play.

Roy Makaay is unfortunate to have been 3rd in the pecking order behind Kluivert and RVN however being used as a right winger has helped his chances!

Landzaat, Tim de cler, kromkamp are in my view techincally sound players but dont add anything to the squad.

Also its a shame players such as Bouma, Hofland and van der Meyde have lost form.

But this just my opinion are there any other dutch players especially youngster who you feel make the grade?

Posted from  United Kingdom

@Rami lol 4-3-3 is ok but dont think 4-4-3 is allowed, but we knew u meant 4-3-3…

ahhhhhh, what a dissapointment, again.. dont know were to start..

defence, ok, nothing special, a bit untidy in the beginning, but bad in changing from defence to attack.Ooijer hasnt really recoverd from his move to Blackburn, Emanuelson is somebody for 4-5 years, Boula played ok, Timmer ok..

midfield, vanderVaart suffers like his club HSV, Landzaat i just dont think hes good enough for Oranje (hes not even good eneugh for the Wigan starting 11), Clarence..well Clarence played ok, few mistakes, few decent balls, nice to hear the croud scant his name.. thuight he did pretty well (there was some pressure), the attack was afwul(?), Robben hasnt played great in ages and this was Kuyts worst game for Oranje ever..

i have to agree with Micha, (sorry Rami), really think vanBommel and vanNistelrooy are a big miss in this team, i even agree with misha on the vanBasten has to go thing…. we havent seen a decent 90 minutes of Oranje in ages!!! Every time its the same dissapointment, Lux. Albanie etc. etc., euro 08 is not that far away and i havent seen any progression in the last 2 years.. vanBasten is responcible (?), he f$cked up, he cant chose the best team we have cos of his arrogance…

dark, very dark times my fellow holland fans

grzt

Posted from  Netherlands

Interesting, that post on Oranje and 4-3-3. Ajax in the mid 90s did not play 4-3-3. They played 3-3-4 when in possession, and 4-5-1 when the opponent had possession. Blind came on to midfield, Litmanen would move next to kluivert. When they lost the ball on a certain side, they’d harmonica their way back (if they lost the ball on the left flank, Overmars would put pressure on the ball, finidi george on the right would immediately fall back to midfield position. The discipline, physically, and the technical skills of the players and the sheer intelligence of Blind and Litmanen made this work. Nothing to do with the ol’ borin’ academic 442/433 discussion…

Posted from  Australia

Our fellows!
we all agree NT didn’t worked well with English friends.Then, what do we learn from that?
Macleran seems to have taken it all from the match.
Technically, they came to test a solid defence against a top level attack.And they were so comfortable in this sense, although the opponent was not as lethal as expected.
Tactically, they found huge spaces behind the pressing enemie’s line, offering lots of chances.
On results, it never below their best hope of a draw.
We were happy see Seedorf with the team again and mid-field didn’t failed to domainate either.
nevertheless,we hardly produce some rare chances from 61%pocession and even Vaart’s equalizer needed abit luck.
All of our rivals, from Croatia to Portugals learnt well how to play a decent counter strike game against pressing Oranges and so do the Lions by this time.
Our strikers always missed to find a space around the tightly compressed defensive area, while the defenders usually disarrayed to face counter attack.
It is Orange’s strategists to find the facts by now.
Have we technicians and specialists to brake out that tightened defences after pushing them behind?
Is our defenders smart enough to foil the counter attacks once we loose position.
Even our strongest euro2000 squad failed to brake Italian defence at home.
How long have we been from winning against quality opponents? Think the last was 1998wc to Argies.
Our guys looked to be confusing with their out of date winning formulars and the present level of our players.
Ajax no longer only Acadmy to produce world’s finest players.
Only Robben and seeorf proved their world class performamce while the others are so so.
Without a vision reflecting the reality, Oranges looks to stay far from where they should be.
Winning a major trophy?
Anyone thinks it thinkable with this regime?

Posted from  Myanmar

Well Rami, here’s my problem with what i saw from Clarence Seedorf; oranje dominated possession throughout the game, England fell back in all out defense and allowed us to build the attack, so the mid-field was almost uncontested. This gave several opportunities for the mid-fielders ie, Seedorf to handle the ball for long periods of time, the problem was that we could not advance any attack effectively past their defense, any attempts at runs through the middle were stopped before our players could reach the box, so the mid-fielders either passed backwards to start all over again or forced the ball out to the wings, which produced no quality crosses into the box and as far as i could tell there was no strikers there to receive them anyway? So that inability to produce effective attacking penetration was the first problem; and Seedorfs efforts did nothing to help that. Also, the plays out to the wings and Seedorfs personal turn overs produced dangerous counter attacks that the mid-field, again Seedorf failed to pick up. We were lucky that England only managed one goal on their several effective counter attacks (BECAUSE THEY SUCK!) And we got lucky to score the late equalizer off a fluke rebound. So what, how did Seedorf help the all out sh*t performance of our team, my opinion, he did very little to improve the squad. The mid-field looked good because it was unchallenged, but whenever Seedorf attempted to penetrate the english defense, he was completely stopped, and often the result was a dangerous counter attack.
I have watched Ruud play with Real Madrid, last week I watched him score 4 goals 2 beauties and 2 garbage rebounds, but he nearly missed 2-3 other great opportunities. Why he is not on the team baffles me, and the blame lies clearly with Van Basten. If u think Netherlands will do anything except get eliminated in the Euro tournament, then I will see u here in 08. But Seedorf has done, and will do nothing to help this sinking ship of a team. And he has no future with our national team beyond our elimination in the up coming tournament, so cheer all u want now cause u will be crying in 08.

@Misha, hear your comment about Seedorf, still think it doensnt really matter how this midfield played against England, dont know if they were really unchallanced but i think you have to look what players vanBasten can call for a midfield position…i still think vanBommel should be in the team and lets be honest; Seedorf is 10 times better than all the players vanBasten called (Schaar, Maduro, Landzaat), just think its still not enough, with vanBommel well have some extra zest (?) in our midfield…now i agree that Seedorf didnt play a special game, and that he couldnt make the (a) differce, but i think he should be part of our midfield

as for Ruud, ofcourse he should be in the team, Huntelaar is a player for the future and nobody can tell me that VofH is a better striker than Ruud, ill say it one more time…..cause of his bad people-management skills vanBasten cant pick the strongest players anymore cause he drove them away

greetz

WIJ HOUDEN VAN ORANJE

Posted from  Netherlands

Misha!
have you checked another post…..nice bloke
They all cheered at Seedorf.
Some even felt as lost soul back with him.
At least he showed good example to Bommel, Ruud..
He just back for Holland not Basten.

Posted from  Myanmar