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Marco, where do we go from here?

August 23rd, 2007 | By: Jan | 28 Comments »

Ok… less than a year to go till the EC’08.

Still not qualified, so we need to get our act together.

Bar Bommel, all mavericks are in the group (Ruud, Clarence, etc).

Marco sort of abandoned the 4-3-3 dogma against the Swiss, so all good there too.

Sneijder, Babel and Drenthe moved to tougher competitions. Robben signed a new lease on life. Robin is fit…

So, Marco, where do we go from here? What will we do now to make sure our great players become a great team?

My 2cents:

1. Keep that 4-3-3 religion behind closed doors and chuck the key away.

2. Come up with a huge rabbit out of the hat to enforce our back line.
They may be mediocre defenders, but that does not worry me. We don’t go on the pitch to defend anyway. And the reason our mediocre defenders become poor defenders is because they’re poor builders. Poor passers. And have poor vision. So, we lose the ball too early in the game, our defenders are out of position. All our midfielders are in front of the ball, hence we’re played out of position by cunning counter-attackers (and yes, Swiss, Albanians, Bulgarians…they all know how to do this, let alone when we play Italy, Germany or France, right?). And then we look bad. It looks as if our defenders are lousy. But they’re not. It’s the situation.

Ball possession will keep our defense from blundering.

BUT, we do need someone at the back who can lead, who has a good eye and who can keep possession and pass the ball 99% correct.

We had Blind, Koeman, Rijkaard, Cocu, Frank de Boer there in the past. All former midfielders and even attackers.

My suggestion: Clarence Seedorf!!! With all his faults, we should ask him to do it. Leadership skills, vision, fantastic skills…

Most opponents play with only 1 or 2 strikers, so the likes of Melchiot, Boula, Ooijer or Hofland should be able to mark those chaps.

3. We can’t play all our super players. Marco, you gotta make some tough decisions.

I’d say: Robben, Kuyt, Gio, who ever…. you’re benched. And only if the others are injured or significantly out of form, they come on. Or when the flow of the match needs new blood.

My line up:

SAR

MELCHIOT BOULAH SEEDORF De CLER / GIO (don’t care really)

SNEIJDER DE ZEEUW V PERSIE VD VAART

VAN NISTELROOY BABEL

And this would be a shadow team:

TIMMER

BOULAH OOIJER SNEIJDER EMANUELSON

HOFFS GIO AFFELAY ROBBEN

HUNTELAAR KUYT

And we have Assiati, De Guzman, Schaars, Maduro, Drenthe, Donk, Vlaar, Bruins, Castelen and many others even waiting in the wings…

But with the EC approaching and with enough “mature” players for most positions, I’d say: forget youngsters like Drenthe, Emanuelson, Maduro, Waterman, Jenner etc for now and form that winning team!!!

GO HOLLAND

Tags: Clarence Seedorf, Robin van Persie, The Netherlands, Wesley Sneijder

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Comments

Displaying the most recent 25 comments from a total of 28 comments.

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By sandesh | August 24th, 2007 at 4:56 am

good view all u guys jan u have shown wat really is da problem in the oranje football these days
we have 5 or 6 super players but it is impossible to play all of them i wish i cud see all of them at once n play fabolusly well all scoring goals
but that can not happen n that will not happen
i dont kno much about those dutch players who play in holland
becoz this is the only league i dont have access to
otherwise we here in nepal can watch epl spanish league scottish league italian league n bundesliga live if not live then the sports channel will have the recorded version next day
so i can watch all those players in those leegs but i am unfamiliar wid those playing in eredivisie but i keep updated with u guys bout who they r n how they r playing
i think the real prob is we lack a player like davids
van bommel landzaat de jong gio afellay de zeeuw they can play how davids played but they must work hard very very hard
van bommel wen i see him playing 4 bayern is absolutely fantastic may b he can b played in dat positionthe idea of playing seedorf in dat positon is good
coz he is matured experienced n have got all those qualities
is a bit old but speed is not cocern wen u r playing as a defensive midfield
kuy works so hard for liverpool n van der vaart look at him he leads an average team like hamburg in a style such n example such n inspiration
the problem is our coach i think he hasnot got the vision one game at a time
thats the way he is going
anyway come september n provve me wrong Mr.Marco van Basten
can anyone tell me which dutch football clubs r playing in this years uefa cup
az alkmaar is sure n wat bout others i have to know plzzzz
eventhough i am not dutch, but orange fottball runs in my blood
eventhough i am not dutch, but orange fottball runs in my blood

Posted from Nepal

By Jan | August 24th, 2007 at 5:24 am

PSV plays CL, Ajax plays CL qualification but could lose the second match against Prague and then they will play UEFA. AZ ALkmaar plays UEFA and FC Twente and FC Groningen.

Feyenoord missed out this year.

Posted from Australia

By sandesh | August 24th, 2007 at 5:31 am

thank u jan for ur information
i can watch ucl on tv but not the uefa cup n yes i did watch ajax vs ….. the recorded game on wednesday they thrashed 8-1 good positive sign for their ucl qualifier game against sparta ….
Hunter back in form

Posted from Nepal

By tiju | August 24th, 2007 at 10:33 am

Dear jan
My name is Tiju Thomas from India.wat i am crying now the current state of our orange
Do u think Zneder,quite, decler,bula hruz,kew jaliens ,landsaat,gio into triamph no way
Zee dorf is is just ok
our teams shuld be
Nestel rooy=hantlaar
Roban=babel
Vanpersie=castelen
Vart= bakal( we need a fabergas bakal is like that line to line same time others have creativity)
Evander zno=hedwings
Scaars =drenthe
Donk=Mathjenson
Luirink= Ron Varl
ooiger=Zeprokal
heitinga= zuiverloon
We need big size quick defenders
do not think abt emanuel son and gio at the left

By Jan | August 24th, 2007 at 10:58 am

I would definitely add Sno, De Ridder and Rigters to the main team.

Posted from Italy

By alaa | August 24th, 2007 at 10:59 am

weren’t you in australia jan, are you in italy now?

By ferenc | August 24th, 2007 at 11:16 am

Jan: i’m not so sure that Clarence is as good in defending than in creative tasks.of course he could build from the back,but the defence would be even more vulnerable. why we don’t have a new Jaap Stam?????

(actually i’d put de zeeuw or sneijder to this role.)

vds – heitinga,sneijder,matthijsen,emmanuelson – seedorf,de zeeuw,drenthe (gio),van der vaart – van persie,rvn

something like this

Posted from Hungary

By Dr.Mansur | August 24th, 2007 at 11:35 am

I saw the recorded Holland-Sw’land match.The players looked tired specially in the second half.Khalid Boularouz looked terrible while conceding the second goal.My experience of watching Dutch football for many many years says that Holland never plays well when they are not in their traditional orange jersey.Can anyone give the stats how many matches they have won in white jerseys.Holland in dire need to have a good defence line.I am quite sure this team was capable to beat the Swiss team 3-0 or 4-0,but alas!!!

Posted from Bangladesh

By Mario | August 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pm

Where do we go with Marco?
Well, nowhere, to hell, he is having mistake after mistake, I am tired of watching Holland play so bad. What about this line up:

1- van der Sar
________________________________
2- Kromkamp
3- Heitinga
4- van Bommel
5- Emmanuelson
________________________________
6- De Zeeuw, Maduro or Gio (holding mid)or even Drenthe, he doesn´t dominate this position but can learn it and be our new Davids, he has the same attitude of Edgar and the same passion, we need a guy like him perhaps.
7- Afellay-right mid (this guy is huge)
8- Seedorf-offensive mid with freedom on the pitch
11-Robben-left mid
______________________________
9- Ruud
10- Van Perie (shadow striker)

Well, this would be my line up, van der Vaart on the bench, he has never been in the same level as he plays for Hamburg in the national team. A player like Afellay will be more important in the future, van der Vaart reminds me of those players who are good at club level but at the national team they just don´t perform well. But the team I propose here will never be an option for van Basten because he has problems with Kromkamp, and van Bommel and is a 4-4-2 system. Well, I am very doubtful we will win vs Bulgaria, the team play is not there, I guess he is not able to inspire his players anymore, let´s hope he is out very soon before it´s too late. I think his period as national coach is close to an end and I really really hope that hapens. I like Marco as a person, as a player and I loved what he did when he played, but as a coach he has way too much to learn and we don´t want aprentices in the national team, we want succesful and proven players and coaches. What the hell is wrong with the KNVB?. To lose against the swiss with almost all our stars is very worrying, with all the respect the Swiss deserve, they don´t have a single star in their team, it´s unnaceptable.

By Jan | August 24th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

Well. some quiick responses to your posts…

I’m still in Australia. The other Jan I believe is Jan from the Switzerland blog, who lives near Switzerland in Italy. I believe.

As for Jaap Stam… I don’t see Seedorf in the Stam role!! I want a normal defender in the Stam role. I want Seedorf in the football-playing and building up role… With all due respect, Stam was not a great builder up, so to speak. He gave the ball quickly to De Boer or Cocu. Fine by me .

And we shouldn’t be more vulnerable. Analyse the match (if you taped it). And analyse where, why and how the Swiss can take over and put pressure on us. Is it because the Swiss are great? Or is it because we make a mistake somewhere on the pitch and lose the ball? See, if RvN loses the ball up front, we should have time and personnel enough to block the counter.
If our defense passes the ball wrongly, they (the Swiss) will be all over us. We need more football at the back, not more muscle. But we will need more muscle in midfield which is why I want De Zeeuw on midfield and not Affelay or Drenthe or Maduro. Great players, but Affelay to fragile and the other two tactically just not disciplined enough… Later, for them.

Posted from Australia

By Jan | August 24th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

@Tiju Thomas…
Is that a Dutch or English surname…

I think we have great players now. The only thing we need to do is mould them into a team.
I wouldn’t suggest replacing them by U21 players of whom some haven’t even reached a starting position with the big boys…

Their time will come…

Posted from Australia

By JVB21 | August 24th, 2007 at 10:26 pm

Well I like the idea of a creative leader with vision operating right in front of the defense I have my reservations about Seedorf being that person. His hunger to cover the pitch with a defensive mind isn’t there, nor have I seen him to be a player particularly strong at staying focused and involved in the transition back and forth from defense to offense. He likes to receive the ball, not win it. I would think that while he lacks the physical might, perhaps your “shadow team” choice of Sneijder is a better option, he exhibits the passion necessary to build from the back. Now this isn’t to say that I disagree with your overall analysis Jan, in fact I think you’re pretty spot on.

If I follow your thinking the problem is the lack of threat from the back line. Everyone seems to be in on the joke, and as a result the “build up” really doesn’t happen until the last third of the pitch. This makes the Oranje easy to defend against. Since we really don’t have the perfect pieces for the puzzle the only options are a creative player swap (like the Seedorf gambit) and some adjustment to the tactical team play. Both of which lead us to Mr Marco.

Sometimes I wonder if Marco ponders this as much as we the 12th man do.

Posted from Canada

By Xerox | August 25th, 2007 at 5:09 am

i dnt think Seedorf would do well in defense. he played behind 2 strikers last year when winning the champions league! Needed : a defensive midfield and a central defender. only a year left to find..

and i think to attack good defenders are needed as if the defense plays high on the pitch, they are more vulnerable to counter-attacks and you need a quick and highly talented line of defense to cope.

By Xerox | August 25th, 2007 at 5:16 am

and also to attack you need the ball, thus good defenders are needed to win the ball quickly and pass it to the midfield. if these defenders dnt progress, i dnt see attacking football happening.

but the attackers are quite good!! on pitch and on bench!

By Jan | August 25th, 2007 at 6:32 am

JVB21 You may well be right… There are some pros and cons to Seedorf. Let’s say that with his skills he should be able to do it. But his lack of discipline and focus is a legitimate point. Sneijder could do it, but didn’t do well on that position in the WC. It’s a tough one. But did you know that one Edgar Davids played in that role in the mighty Ajax under Van Gaal. He didn’t do it often, but when Ajax missed De Boer and Rijkaard and blind (injuries, suspensions) Edgar played there and did that very well too.I remember when JC let Rijkaard play there, the whole nation went berserk. But Frankie was the right choice. A bit laconic at times, but a true Kaiser like Der Franz. Who oh who do we have for that position…

VAN BOMMEL!!!!

and yes Xerox, you’re point is on the mark! We’d need ferocious defenders like Winston Bogarde and Jaap Stam in their best times… A dying race in Holland. We all want to develop Robbens but forget the backbone of the team…

Posted from Australia

By JVB21 | August 25th, 2007 at 5:57 pm

Ah, Mr Davids would be my choice as well, and if anyone should have an ax to grind with Marco it should well be him. Handed the Cappy’s arm band only to be dropped from the team. Ouch.

I’d agree on Van Bommel but we all know he’s not coming back. It’s a pity that personal politics have sabotaged the potential of oranje…again.

As for ferocious defenders, absolutely!

Which brings me to something I’d like to hear the groups thoughts on.

While my history and understanding of Dutch football and the Oranje is limited it’s obvious that the ultimate goal is beautiful football. Hurrah! But I think something is creeping into the game in general that is for the worse. There seems to be the idea that defense can’t be beautiful. I’m not talking about 11 men behind the ball creating grid-lock. So much of skill development and game focus is on offense that the game has slipped to a point where players ability to defend one via one is nearly obsolete. Beating a man with a dazzling dribble is a learned/practiced skill. So is taking the candy away from the goal scoring babies. Yes I’d probably pee my pants seeing Ronaldhino coming at me, but damn it’d be nice to pick his pocket then crack a 60 yarder to Bergkamp for a little more magic.

I guess what I’m saying is perhaps we need more posters of Kolo Toure and his ilk.

Posted from Canada

By Bob Van Vranken | August 25th, 2007 at 6:41 pm

I am an American of Dutch heritage, and have been a Netherlands football fan since the great early days of the 1970s. I believe that the three greatest Dutch teams were in 1974, 1988 and 1998. As Jan and others have written, these teams were great because, in spite of certain Dutch cultural quirks that can affect team spirit, these wonderful 11s played as a unit. In addition, these groups were led by perhaps the two greatest Dutch coaches, Michels and Hiddink. In my opinion, the players are now available to create another legendary Orange. However, I do not believe that van Basten and van t’Schip are the coaches/trainers to make this group a team. For a small country, Holland has more talent per population than any country on the planet. It fails to succeed due to poor coaching and lack of cooperation for a common mission. Michels and Hiddink were able to form their squads into highly skilled and cooperative teammates. van Basten has yet to show me that he has that ability. He is, himself, correct as to the point of his coaching career having come to the highest level much too soon. The other choice of coach for the current group of players could also be deHaan, who understands the need to team build and to present tactically in a way that reflects the talent on the team. deHaan took flack from Cruijff for going away from the Dutch 4-3-3, but deHaan was right to do so and, as he said it, for the best reason–his U21 squad was better suited for 4-2-2. That kind of coaching maturity and insight are not yet part of the van Basten skill set, in part because he was promoted too high, too soon.

Keep the faith for the Orange, however, as they are a gifted and talented team (weak in defence to be sure!)that can achieve with the right guidance.

Posted from United States

By Bob | August 25th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

Sorry about the typo–I meant 4-4-2, not 4-2-2. One final thought, and that is it needs to be determined whether van Basten can reach out to mentors that can assist in making this current team the best it can be. Base on what I have seen to date, the Netherlands should be very competitive again in the European Championship, but it must get there first!

Posted from United States

By tjeerd | August 25th, 2007 at 10:06 pm

We have talented players, all be it a little weak on defence. Holland has always strived, unlike the Italians to play “attractive football”. What has it got us, one Euro Championship. Maybe we have to rethink the strategy to “winning football”. let “attractive football” take a back seat. Vince Lombardi
said,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi

“winning is’nt every thing, its the only thing”

By tjeerd | August 25th, 2007 at 10:11 pm

The great Vince Lombardi Quotations that I hope Marco Van Bastian reads
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi

By goose | August 26th, 2007 at 3:26 am

nah Jan; dont think Seedorf is the solution..he lacks defensive qualities…my choice has to be

VAN BOMMEL

they really should get together and work thinks out (1 step should be taken by Mark)
vanBommel plays as a kind of libero right in front of defence (behind Ryberie) and it works great..he has enough footbal qualitys, is a great defender (and a great asshole to have on your team if you know what i mean…

@tjeerd; think we already passed that station..vanBasten started by saying : “we need dominating, attacking football” ie 4-3-3…but we have played result-football since the start…we havent lost much with vanBasten as manager but we havent played any great game for 90 minutes in a few years!!

@Bob: its been said a millions times but ill say it again..vanBasten is the worst people manager since Atilla the Hun……it just doenst work

Posted from Netherlands

By Tiju Thomas | August 26th, 2007 at 5:48 am

Dear Jan
i can predict the oranges way to euro2008. i knew the capacity of each players how much they can do for orange .With all respect to u and love to my holland .only becoz of van persie ,roban,babel/nestel rooy these skilled players we will win some matches in qualifying round.after tat?With a narrow margin we will qualify 2008.after tat do u think this team is able to beat france,italy,brazil,portugal,i dont think they will win.why? because of minute selfconfidence
with znider,,bulahruz ,gio,Quite,jaliens,tim de cler
we can win some matches against some teams not the tournament EURO2008/WORLDCUP
why i took young boys drenthe,donk ,babel, they are mentally fit.remmmber before the under 21 drenthe declared we r going to win the tournament and he won it(Man of the tounament).
Why i took otoman bakal heis a line to line midfeilder drenthe nand scahrs too.In defence u need Muscles with brilliance not much talent.
why Marc is sticking on urby and gio and de cler on left give tat chance to donk and bouma
for central defence we need tall header specilists (ron varrl,Luirink,Ooigeretc we can try)
heitinga is good in rigt wing not in center,
after tat we can go for melchiot,krompcamp ,zuiverloon(van bastens choice)
holding mid feilder(ze dorf/davids/hedwings ,evanzer Sno(any two)
we need tireless midfilders with good dibling skills(their duty=supply the ball to the font tio)we need four in this catagory.
(we lagging in this part)
front line is ok
with
(oban nestel,vanpesie)
babel, hantlaar, castelen)hee we r having supe equal substituion
fine
van sar/stekel is ok
but wat next wait and see

By Jan | August 26th, 2007 at 6:16 am

Good points all! And yes Bob (welcome) you’re right. Having great players is one thing, having them form a team is another. Too bad Van Gaal couldn’t manage to do it for the WC02…

Posted from Australia

By goose | August 26th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

please Jan, ;ets not go there!! haha
but think its really sad that we have lost our way under vanBasten

Co Adriaanse was so right when he said: he good horse doenst mean a good ryder per se…

wonder if the KNVB will ever learn or maybe our next bondscoach will be either FrankdeBoer or Patrick
Kluivert..haha

@TThomas; not quit sure that it is a mentality problem..true, our defensife could be stronger but i really see the problem as a team that just doenst work..its not a unit..its still not clear how they suppose to play..thats all vanBastens fault, he is responsilbe, he gets paid to solve problems and create a team..

well; lets just all pray…lets pray that well qualify and by some miracle a decent team will grow..lets pray will defeat the port. in the semis with 4-0 (killing C.R. along the way) and then the germans (in their own garden..remember Der Anschluss?? i havent) in the final

well, im off praying..grtz

Posted from Netherlands

By tiju thomas | August 28th, 2007 at 6:55 am

I am
an Indian dutch football is in my blood
I agreed jan And goose
We need a well oiled team but for tat we need good ingradients
znider we can include him in Steaphen Gerad /lampard catagory.
think abt the stage of England did they reached even semis in tournament likeEURO &WC.
According my point of veiw
for smooth play we should avoid these players
Tim de cler,kew jaliens,bulahruz
and more
Znider,,,kuyt, is not suitable for a winning team.They r all good but not fit for orange
dont forget howmany chances they waisted against potugal.and more
we one 10 WC qualifying matches 2 draw.
My ? How many match znider played?(aginst strong teams)
Remmeber the match against finland tat day we were 1 gol behind .but even though we won
y?

Posted from India