Holland vs England; no Seedorf

This post is depressing. Really.

How the hell does he intend to beat Lampard or Gerrard with those rookies in midfield??
The matchup is gonna be the equivalent of belgium – england.. At best. Unfortunately.

Posted from  United States

Rami, its a friendly; this is a good time to look at some of these kids and there is some good talent there. I would love to see Ibrahim Afellay commit. He was born to Marocan parents but I do believe he was born in Holland btw. (Utrecht?); I could be wrong on that. Here is a kid that at a very young age sees the field extremely well. I would have loved to see MVB add Seedorf just to see how that would work but alas, it is not to be.
As for the English, in my opinion they are the most over rated side in the world.
Sure they have the best competition but it is only so because money allows them to purchase the best talent from the world over. Just for fun have a look at this list and count the Englishmen. When you are through count the dutchmen

Top 10 all time scores in the Champions League:

Raúl 54
Van Nistelrooy 46
Henry 42
Sjevtsjenko 42
Del Piero 37
Filippo Inzaghi 34
Morientes 31
Kluivert 29
Trezeguet 28
Makaay 27

Ibrahim Afellay and Sno are quite exciting prospects. especially Afellay is more n all rounder than Vaart or Sneijder. BTW ajax an AZ did well in uefa, Hunter scoring twice. I don’t think we have big problems with England win or draw is likely.

Posted from  Myanmar

I hardly imagine that would be the case, sphinx..

Robert, MVB has been experimenting too long. He needs to create a steady and consistant side, so that we would be prepared for 2008.
Im not saying its already late, but i fear he would continue to experiment, just as he did before the last worldcup, and then suddenly, at the very last minute, expect to come up with consistency in the team.
If everyone agrees our best midfield is more or less seedorf-sneijder-van bommel, the players need to be playing together, and get used to each other..

Dont care if it’s a friendly.. that wasnt my cause of concern in the first place. But MVB just seems to have absolutely no plan whatsoever for the future. So yes, depressing thread.

Posted from  Russian Federation

true Rami, no more time for experimenting…even tough this is a friendly its time for us to get a decent starting 11…. Affelay is born in Holland but cause hes from maroccan parents he had 2 passports…very sad to hear him say what a difficult choice it is for him..i say: go and play for Marrocco, i just want players in Oranje who our proud of our country and proud to play in the national team…hes not that special, we already have a lot of players like him (small, good technic etc.) really wouldnt care if he would chose Marrocco (btw. hes an arrogant asshole aswell)

@Robbert: not so sure about your England comment, rue, the english themselfs always reckon they have the best team ever but theyre not a bad team..they have a midfield which we can only dream about, Gerard, Lampart etc. great,great players

btw: went to Liverpool last week to see Liverpool – Aston Villa (wearing my orange shirt), was great to see Kuyt score, he played really well, and so did Gerard btw..

and yes Rami, its all very depressing and dont see any light at the end of the tunnel (not aslong as vanBasten is bondscoach)
groeten

Posted from  Netherlands

I dont agree that van Bommel and Seedorf should play on the Dutch midfield, simply because they arent good enough.

Sure we could dream about an England midfield, but that would be stupid since Gerrard and Lampard are two heavily overrated midfielders. I’d pick Sneijder and the gang over those two any day.

And no, MVB shouldnt stop experementing. The reason why he became one of the best players in the world is that the learnt to take risks. Sure, he could do like Rijkaard and pick Peter van Vossen instead of younger names but it is not the style of this guy, and that makes me happy. If MVB didnt try new players we wouldnt had get to see Boulahrouz, Kuijt, Huntelaar, Schaars etc.

I wonder when you are going to see that Holland hasnt lost a single qualification game since van Basten took over.

Posted from  Sweden

rami!
you are very true with Basten. he tested long enough during 2006 qualifying and took fine results with a solid defence. But everything changed at Wc finals. He gaveway all his test-experiences.
Now he testing his no man mid-field once again. Even if he can made something out of that, his inconsistancy would make it useless t the finals.
God! when would he end up with NT and we shall see some lights again

Posted from  Myanmar

I translated (pporly) a article form Elzevier magazine:

In his preface of the book ‘the cult of the manager(1997)’the english football journalist distinguishes 4 kinds of manager; inspirators,motivators, intellectuals and theoreticians.

The inspirator is the manager who was a star athlete himself who canconvey this magic to his pupils. J.Cruijff belongs to this category and until the 2006 WC bondscoach vanBasten had the same aura. The problem is that the myth is subject to wear and tear.

Gullit experienced this..in his first years as (playing) manager at Spurs and Chelsea and also as tv analist for the BBC, he had the reputation of beeing somewhat of a guru. But at Feyenoord and Newcastle his inspiration worked only for a small period of time, at the end he lapsed into cynicism, and the players who at first rised themself on this myth, slid with him in the dark of depths.

It looks like vanBasten is on the boundary at this moment in time. In his early days as bondcoachs dutch players seem to rise above themselfs, cause the new bondscoach looked at performances rather than reputations. All of a sudden they saw their changes multiply. And when a legend like vanBasten call on you, youll go through hell for him.
But before the WC started problems appeared. VanBsten had to make choiches cause he could only bring 23 players with him to Germany. The way he handled the ‘drop-outs’during this proces made the internationals very insecure. It seemed like the bondscoach used them as pawns in a chess game; useful but exchangeable.
And all of a sudden the reverse proces appeared; the players didnt rise above themselfs in the national team, like they did in the beginning, but they crumbled and played less than they did at their clubs. Even praised internationals like Cocu and vanBommel suffered. VanBasten showed little attention to the fragile athletes soul. In vanBastens view it is part of the footballing proffession that players find out themselfs that they havent been selected. But proffessionality has to do about how athletes create circumstances for themself to flourish.
In the end, the decisive element in any game is the believe in victory. Espesially after his harsh words to vanBommel – ‘he didnt carry out his tasks’- every initiative thinking seemed to leave Oranje. Everybody now focesed convulsively on his own tasks, but that didnt resulted in dominant football. To play dominant football you need to impose your will on the opponent. But it requires guts to take initiative and sometimes to take initiative you need to neglect your duties for a moment.
This problem arised in the hart of the team, the 3 man midfield, who encountered a block of 4 opponents each game. During this WC this line has to run down so many gaps that they had neither the phycical nor the mental strenght left to take initiative. And cause the system is (was) sacred, vanBasten had only the players left to blame..

greetz

Posted from  Netherlands

Very good translation goose.
How could an out-numbered mid-field of inexperienced and dictated players domainate?
Many teams are playing even 5 men mid-field nowadays.
All quality players were left off or killed off initiatives.
What a dengerous proceedings of Basten-Cruyff regime?

Posted from  Myanmar

@sphinx: yes , youre right, i espec. liked the part in wich he writes of the pressures on midfield and no-one having the guts to show initiative. if needed vanBasten should change the system to get a better grip on midfield, without this grip no dominant foorball is possible (thats what we all want to see),

still want vanBasten to go but i know he wont!!

grtz

Posted from  Netherlands

Excellent points. Motivation and desire are so essential, as is the ability to do things on instinct.

The first is essential because you have to try really hard at the top levels. It’s going to hurt when you sprint at top speed, collide with opponents, get whacked by the ball.

And instinct is crucial, you don’t have time to think. That opening is there for just a split second.

And that was clearly lacking with Van B’s approach. But again, I don’t see any real alternative right now. And it appears that he’s slowly getting better.

Posted from  United States

Worth reading is Cruyf’s column on Rijkaard’s attitude after the Barca-Chelsea game. In it he praised Rijkaard’s self critisism which I too think is a breath of fresh air among the typical attitude of coaches and athletes alike. Van Basten’s biggest flaw is probably the impersonal way in which he deals with players but his most annoying quality is imo his habbit of dishing out critisism on his players while assessing himself with relatively high marks.
I differ from most guys on these boards in that I have little problem with him not selecting van Bommel and van Nistelrooy and although Seedorf I think deserves a chance imo his past woth Oranje indicates little upside.
But while I understand and often don’t disagree with his selections I do dislike his attitude and I think the Elsevier article raises valid points.No one having the guts to show initiative? If you watch them play it is hard to argue with that. I thought Schneider in the Bulgaria game and VDV in the Ireland game showed some but in general there does seem to be a lack of creativity and initiative. Just about the opposite of what he was trying to accomplish.
On a brighter not Ajax and PSV are playing pretty good soccer and AZ seems to be well on their way in becoming a good club. Kuyt and van Persie are playing outstanding abroad as are several others.
Not all doom and gloom

@Robert, im very impressed with PSV, they look really grown-up if you know what i mean (to bad so few dutchman in that team who make their mark), also impressed with AZ, have to say that vanGaal really does work some magic….

still think vanBasten pressures to much (esp. if your not from Ajax) they all look afraid to make a mistake and thats to bad cause i still think our greatest asset has always been attacking , suprising, football

greetz

Posted from  Netherlands

I agree with Robert’s post… I also think it’s the coach’s prerogative to pick and choose the players he wants. No worries. But…some explanation would help (as a national coach you need to be accountable for your decisions) and as Robert said: his attitude towards the players is questionable.

Posted from  Australia