I’m also a layman. I only started studying History not a long time ago. It’s not my profession. But I do like to talk about these things.

PT and NL… Small, by the ocean/sea, historically felt “the pull to go”, huge jewish influence in both our Great Ages, both understood the power of learning with what’s different. Although in different manners…

In some sort of twisted way, the Calimero Syndrome hits us all… It just shows in a different way…

ps – wanting to outperform the others is good, in my mind…
pps – of course WE play the best Footbal!!! Even if so often unefficient – we really have to learn with the italians…

As for Calimero, you know the cartoon right? “I am small and they are big” is what he used to say. To me, it always seems the Dutch feel they are a super power. Whether it’s the G8 or that group of clubs talking to the UEFA about policy, we always feel we need to be part of that. We take ourselves very seriously in the grand scheme of world affairs, but I think we over-estimate ourselves. Politically, economically and in terms of football.

But I don’t know, maybe that’s just me. Being Dutch, I remember from my career with a huge American multinational that the Dutch always had the biggest mouths, always bended the rules and always wanted to out-perform the other countries. We felt superior. Whether it was business or football. We still think we’re the best in the world, not because we win the most cups (we don’t) but because we play the best football (we don’t).

I was kinda expecting something more elaborate on the Calimero syndrome… That and other countries as well…

Anyway, the type of pride you show, as well as dutch in general, in your own country and your History and etc, is what I actually envy, nowadays… People in PT are very much proud of theirs but don’t really cherish it anymore, maniphest it or even defend it. They don;t really do much with it or about it… It decays… Maybe it’s our punishment…

We too conquered the Seas, although in a rather different manner. You being dutch, especially living in Australia, know this surelly… Actually, before moving to NL I was convinced +/- everybody in “western” europe knew about The Discoveries, but apparently not really… Not for the adding up of deeds, or “comparing sizes” with the other coutnries, but for what it means conceptually, even in how we see the world today. Like you towards what NL gave the world… Curiously, for what I could see, asians tend to show a lot more knowledge than europeans about PT…

If you made the concept of “overseas trading empire” something viable, mainly through commerce, we invented it by putting West and Far East in contact… And, naturally, finding the way there, which costed a “couple of centuries”, a lot of research, study and a “couple of lives”…

Anyway, the word “own” is somewhat too strong, in my mind… You never really own a country… The only thing that lasts is Culture. The only way it stays is when it can. It can be imposed by force, even for centuries, but it ends up dying if it’s got nothing to add, or to replace/improve in the original… Like the roman’s culture in our own case… So Brasil and all the others, inluding the ones we never “owned” but blended and became part of, carry on a tiny bit of us forever. Even if PT desintegrates one day… Or even today… Hence the expression “Imortal Soul”. The language, the food, the music, etc… All that lasted centuries… Cos it mixed, died and was reborn, in all levels…

I know you too invented the options trade (stock market..?)… That and using the mills to cut wood and build ships better and faster. Indeed you gave a lot to the world.

The internet was not available but to reach the 4 corners of the world was, as we did it dude, not too long before… We invented Globalization… One can say we gave “The World” to the world… Oh, the past…

As for “conquering the world”, I don’t really know what you mean… Territorialy, nobody can really assume to be in the position the english were, although much later… PT’s “empire” was somewhat of a phoenician type, nor did we have the manpower to impose it/maintain it – one of the reaosn for what distinguished us for the others – Mixing/Miscegenation. Others did it too, of course, but never at the same level… Look at Brasil… The “anti-race”, the total mixture (not as glamorous as total football, I know)… Like PT, far before, in its origins that lie deep with the mixture of arabs, jews, european catholics, kelts, “iberians”, etc… As for conquering the blog, it’s between you and Bob…

Hope you win the U21 EK! Even if to dignify PT’s defeat… Veel succes, Oranjes…! Echt!

Pretty neat eh?

We have that Golden Era background, we beat the ocean with our dikes, we are tolerant, very wealthy (as a country), we used to own Manhattan, Australia, the East Indies etc etc. We even took England over for a while . As a small country, we have that confidence issue that small people sometimes have (Napoleon, Al Pacino, Tom Cruise, Edgar Davids) and it may not come as a surprise that the Dutch are actually the tallest people in the world!! Fair dinkum!!

So, we have an opinion about things and we want it to be heard. When the US attacks Iraq, we truly believe it’s relevant to the world what JP Balkenende has to say about it.

In our sports culture, we pride ourselves on how well we do (Olympics, football, hockey, swimming) with that limited number of athletes to chose from.

As I wrote earlier (I think) it’s typical for us to lose the formal fight with the Germans in WW2 within a day, only to come back with one of the strongest resistance groups.

You see this on the pitch too. It started with JC. Talking to the ref, outsmarting other teams, being creative with tactics (total football) and trying not only to win games but also to impress with our skills. But, Dutch people (and players) have a tendency to talk too much, to ask to much questions (”why” is a popular one) and to think we know it better. And we do… .

And in the meantime, we try to find ways to be more successful all the time. To give you an example: options trading was invented by the Dutch. In the 17th century already (no internet available). It started with the tulips market.

So, to summarize, we have marihuana sold freely in coffee shops, we have the red-light district, we invented options trading, total football, conquered the world and sold it again for a profit (or so we thought), we gave the world Erasmus, Van Gogh, Rembrand, Rietveld, Cruyff… And now we control this blog .

We (PT) don’t brag about being the “victims of the rude and brute northern, who think they can kick hard, just cos they also do it at home and therefore it seems normal to them and it seems that we dive more”. We just say: we’re smaller, we dribble more, so in a foul (diving or not) we eat the grass more often. But hey, we chose to do so. It’s how we play. That’s why we don’t complain so much about it. Yet, we’re always the whinners, round here… So much for coherence…!

About Italy… Dives or no dives, 4 world tittles… Like them or not, it’s not with that argument that you’ll convince anybody…

@Jan: How do you see NL’s identity, culture, etc, in the game…? After all, NL’s football is a mix of the northern discipline with a certain flair, skill and interpretation of the game, usually observed in the south (of europe and of america).

One of the funny things I observe is that, although individuality is somewhat put down round here, it’s also seen in someway as a southern thing (the flair, vanity, etc, catholics vs protestants issues of 300 years ago) – the truth is NL is more famous for the brilliance of their stars, than for a super collective strength. Like, for example, Italy – and nobody can say they lack technique. Even if blended with concepts such as total football, which by definition praise “the team” value…

Thanks again for showing interest in the more social/historical issues, that we naturally see in any manifestation of “a group”. Like Football, Music, Literature, History, etc… I am actually quite interested in how you see it in the case of NL, and I too feel sorry that not a lot more, especially from countries other than PT and NL, didn’t respond to “the call”.

ps – I wasn’t having a “discussion” with goose. But now I was trying to have a debate with you/whoever. I also find it fascinating, cos footbaal reaches everybody and everywhere – all different but all +/- the same…

I did not want to tale sides in any portugal – holland discussion or anything. Basically, it was Pedro / Goose’s discussion that triggered this post.

And I also tried to steer it away from polarization between Holland and Portugal and involve other countries as well…

Ah well… you can’t please every one.