Afellay unhappy at PSV

yes he has Lerkot.. heared a story that Asiatti wants to play for Marocco…is it the same rule if you play as a youth international??

Posted from  Netherlands

Nope, not the same rule. Aissati can still choose Morocco.

thanx Lerkot for the info;

did you hear that story about Aisatti too??

Posted from  Netherlands

Ive heard some noise about it, but I think he will wait and see since Morocco isnt as good as they was a couple of years ago (when they actually had a decent team).

dont like that at all… i just want players in Oranje who are proud to play for their counrty (im a bit naive maybe!)… i keep wondering why it is that these turkish and maroccon boys keep choosing their parents homecountry? they often dont speak the language, they are born in educated in Holland, have all the changes and profits (soc. security) Holland has to offer and than they go play for a foreign country.Why is that??

i rather see Aisatti play for marocco if his heart is their and not see him make a calculated choice

Posted from  Netherlands

I think their hearts are equally Dutch/their other nationality, but pretty often they think they arent good enough to play in the Dutch national team and have to pick their second choise.

Goose and Lerkot, interesting and informative discussion regarding the eligibility for an athlete to play for a designated home team. It raises the much larger question, which appears to be under serious consideration in the Netherlands, and what it mean to be a Netherlander–or a German–or a Frenchman–or an Englishman. Should it be based on birth, or residence, or language or passport identity, or what we refer to here in the US as citizenship. As the historical melting pot of the world, and as first settled by the Dutch, New York City established the idea that residence/citizenship defined identity of country. “All were welcome” said the Statue of Liberty, a gift from France to recognize the states, united, as a single country in which one could be considered a citizen. Should it/ does it work the same way in Europe?

The US analogy would be this: a man is born in Surinam, immmigrates to the Netherlands and becomes a citizen of the nation-state we call Holland. Certainly a citizen is allowed to play for the country in which he resides.

What appears unique in international football is that same man may apparently choose to play for the country of his birth, even though I assume he is no longer a citizen of that country. Please explain or correct my understanding or misunderstanding of how these international players can shop around for a country of their choice as to national team selection.

Posted from  United States

@bob; very interesting stuff (politics and sport)

to start with your last question; the ting is that almost all the turks and maroccan people born in Holland have two passports (moraccan law forbids them to loose the maroccan passport!!) so they can always choose between the two..
the surinams are an exeption cause they were officially part of Holland till 1976-77

i have long ’struggled’with the immigrants and football question (if there is one) i was furious a few months ago when the dutch U21 won and these guys were started to wave the surinam flag! think it is very disrespectful, even if non was ment it pissed me off bigtime

on the politic side; we have major problems when it comes in how to handle immigration, the politics of the 80-90 have been based on (the false idea of multiculturalism), most of the dutch (meself not included) have realised only very recently that there can be no such thing
so know its about assimilation, or ‘aanpassen’(adapting) of immigrant to dutch culture

my view; if you come here or are born from immigrants, if you have lived a life with social security, if you have been educated in Holland, if you dream in dutch(!) there should be no reason to not feel dutch and consider yourself dutch

all are welcome but Holland is not just some peace of land where all can live their cultural lives as they wish

just think its very disrespectful of these players to get all the good things we have in Holland (and the reason their parent came in the first place) and than dont feel dutch and play for a country they only know from holidays!

well people; sorry bout the politics

ill be watching Madrid in an hour, lets hope Ruud does better than the other day!

gtrz

Posted from  Netherlands

Players must be citizen of the nation they choose to play for, according to FIFA rules. Some players, however, holds citizenship in two or three countries. Most Dutch immigrants (and its the same thing with immigrants all over Europe really) keep the citizenship of the country where they were born while also becoming citizen in their new countries.

Actually, you dont even need to ever have lived in a country to be a citizen there. It might be enough that your father or mother or grandfather or so was a citizen of a nation, but thats not very common. Every nation got its own rules.

For example, in Italy it might take ten years to succeed with an application (dont know if its the right word) to become a citizen of a country if you dont have any old Italian ancestors (like Camoranesi had), while here in Sweden it usually takes about five years (which is also approximately the time it takes in Holland).

In some countries, like Spain, it takes longer time to become a citizen if you are from Africa than if you are from somewhere in Europe.

Outside Europe, countries might adapt to FIFA rules in order to get Brazilians to play for them. Like in Tunisia, it might take a regular guy ten years to become a citizen but a good football player might get it in just a year or so. Same thing in Qatar, I think.

Damn, Goose, you fast f*ck

haaha Lerkot.. not bad yourself!

thanx for the info btw

Posted from  Netherlands

About multiculture… its an interesting experiment. It might work without problems, but not now, probably not even in fifty years, but it needs to be done to get people to understand eachother.

I know that many European countries to they are scared of immigration, but personally I like it. I think a world without immigrants would be rather boring. I wouldnt like to live in a world without football, pizza or kebab. But sure, it has its problems, but I think the world with overcome them with time. We have in many countries beaten myths about masturbation, homosexuality, races and so on, and as I see it there is only two more really big things understand before the world can work in harmony: there is no God, and strangers arent worse than I am, they are only different. And I think that with time it will happen.

Holland is usually in the front. The Dutch contributions and developement of the modern democracy during the 1900’s was a key to the stabilization of Europe. Extremely important. Holland is always in the front of experimenting. Sometimes with really good results (dealing with sexualities & integration - though the latter is yet to be perfected) and sometimes with less good results (drugs & prostitution), and multiculture is yet to show where it belongs.

I think there is room for street football and van Gogh in the same country - I just think that the Muslim countries and the East-Europe countries need a piece of understanding for how western Europe works, but its hard to blame them because the developement in those countries have been held back by dictators, plus that they never had modernism. And that is a thing we must understand, that everything doesnt go in a hurry. We just need to give it time, and I think it will pay off in a few years as long as we show acceptance and patience - areas where the Dutch rock the spot, which is quite different from how the Americans works. Violence results in more violence, always.

So… multiculture ftw. I dont care if they waved the Surinamese flag. Sure, you could be pissed of as hell - but not nearly as pissed of as the black population of Surinam must have been when they were slaves under the Dutch.

Also, don’t forget that the family pressure in Morrocan, Turkish but also the Molukken culture is strong. Some families keep very romantic and pattriotic dreams alive of the home country. Morrocan and Turkish families who came to the rich countries in Europe didn’t come for a holiday (let’s leave Molukken and Suriname out of the equation for now, they were practically slaves) but to better themselves in this unfair world. They took their families to settle in an alien culture, where they were not aided in integrating. They didn’t need to speak the language, they just needed to do the dirty job in questionable circumstances. The Dutch government didn’t realize the guest-workers were here to stay and they never initiated any integration activities until it was too late. Hmmm….heard that before.

Anyway, pride and identity are important to the Mediterraneans cultures. And particularly the first generation of guest workers pressure their sons or grandsons to play for their “own” country. Sometimes the kids themselves would prefer the Oranje jersey but it’s the family-culture pressure as well.

Goose voices the feelings of the Dutch very well and it’s a logical and understandable stance. But look at it from the guest workers position. They must feel “unrooted”… Homeless. Looked down upon. Mistreated. Misunderstood. And definitely not taken care off.

Posted from  Australia

@Lerkot: I don’t think you have to be a citizen of a country to play for them. You can also play for them if your parent or grand parent was a citizen before. And “there is no God” - how can you be so sure of that? You shouldn’t state something as a fact that you can have no way of being sure of.

Posted from  Japan

Nah Im pretty sure you need to be a citizen, but that its possible to get citizenship by having a grand parent or something. And I’m sure there’s no good, just like I’m sure there is no Santa Claus or Harry Potter.

@jan; hate this politics in a way but ok;

you really CANT say that these people are not looked after… thats bs.. if its anything its they have (had) very special treatment for a long time and they are certainly NOT mistreated here…. its quit the other way around

Jan; youve been in Aus. for a while, dont you see the problems these people bring when you come and visit Holland?

please never again say that these people are not treated with respect!! respect must be earned!

please lets not start about God (or Good as Lerkot calls it, Freud would have a go at that one Lerkot! haha)

grtz

Posted from  Netherlands

“dont you see the problems these people bring when you come and visit Holland?”

I know that was meant for Jan, but exactly what people do you mean? Because it seems you dont judge everyone person to person, but in some kind of wannabe-nonviolent-Hitler-style.

But sure, we can leave God out and so can we do with his friend “good”.

oi Lerkot watch it!! dont bring Hitler here… ill have non of that!!!!

what i meant was that mass immigration of non-westeners brings lots of problems esp. since they all come from rural eareas

i think you owe me an appology….. you have really pissed me of, you dont know me so dont to that

Posted from  Netherlands

Always when politics get in play, we tend a to lose ourselves a bit here :-).

I can fully understand Goose’ reaction on that comparison. The name is still very sensitive to use for us Dutch… And I have to admit that there is an immigrant problem in Holland. May I suggest that Hitler had a racial issue to make, whereas Goose “just” states that immigrant-integration is a problem… And I do know he is right. I have seen and experienced it myself in Holland, Goose, I am not in disagreement with you.

But, I’m just saying, it’s not their fault totally and neither is it the Dutch’ fault. It’s just how it is, when you bring different cultures together without a proper plan to manage it.

When one of us is planted in a country with a different culture, language etc (let’s say Iran as an example) to do low-paid shitty jobs and without the proper integration plans we’d get in trouble too.

And of course, the Dutch tried their best to “help” them, but it was all in the realm of the Western style of doing things…

Here, the Aussie government tried to help the aboriginals by giving them fully furnitured houses. When the government people checked on these people they found the beds and mattrasses still wrapped in plastic and the aboriginals sleeping on the grass in the garden… They asked them: hey, we got you beds! Why don’t you use them? And the aboriginals said: we like to sleep on the grass, outside….

Back to football people!

Posted from  Australia

I have no more to say. Back to football.

so no appology Lerkot; than ill have nothing to do with you anymore

i cant be on the same blog as someone who calls me a wannabe Hitler

see you people around!! thanx 4 the fun

greetz goose

Posted from  Netherlands

Well, not really, no, no apology. But sure, Hitler was a bit much. But it is sort of the same thinking, judging peoples as groups instead of humans - surely its less violent and sick thinking, but its still somewhat the same. Sure, sorry I called you Hitler, I probably should have called you something a bit lesser - like idiot or something. Or fascist. Or perhaps racialist. Pick one.

@Lerkot; youre a fucking SNOB!!! you dont know me at all and now you call me a racist/fascist??!!! who the fuck do you think you are??

thanks for fucking up a place i always loved to go to on the net and where i have put in a lot of time/effort!!

thanks Lerkot!!!!!!

Posted from  Netherlands

Racialist and racist is not the same thing. And its discussable if racialism is fascistic or not.