The Big Johan Cruyff Interview

January 24th, 2012 | by: Jan | Comments(58)

Johan Cruyff. Who doesn’t know him. People all over the world know his name ( and can’t pronounce it). He revolutionised football as a player, as a coach and as a union-leader ( of sorts). Now, he wants to put Ajax back on the international map as an executive.

The man who is revered in Spain ( or better: Catalonia) and is mentioned by Pep Guardiola as the Godfather of the current Dream Team is manhandled out of Ajax and Amsterdam by a bunch of bread-governors ( and one former Ajax icon). But they don’t know their history. Because a pissed off Cruyff always wins.

Ask Ajax in 1983/1984.

How often does Danny tell you: Johan, walk away! Let them sink in their own shit?

JC: “Haha, she tells me every day. But she knows me. I won’t walk away. Never. And that is for two reasons. One, this opposition only fires me up more. These people think they can take over our club. Wrong! They made a mistake. And secondly, we are with many people now and I won’t abandon my brothers in arms. The more resistance we get, the more motivated we get… It’s the old “every disadvantage has it’s advantage” motto again, remember? It’s a mystery to us why these people are treating us like this and why the other two ( means Davids and Romer) are behaving like this. Every time we seemed to make progress, someone else cam from the shadows to put a knife in our back! Never in your face. Always from behind.”

When did you realise the Board of Directors were blocking progress?

“This happened six months ago or so. It was a tough time. There was a lot of lack of clarity for all. We had a good group of real football blokes together but we couldn’t do a lot as we needed a new Board. We were without a captain but we were talking to a number of great guys for future roles, such as Marco van Basten. He indicated he’d prefer to be a coach somewhere and Frank Rijkaard also wanted to stay on the grass. Marc Overmars was keen but he felt too inexperienced to do it. And Tscheu La Ling was also a candidate…”

How did he come into the picture?

“Well, Ling had his dealings with that club Trencin. Leo van Veen works there and we had people checking him ut. Wim Suurbier went to have a look and Maarten Fontein, no slouch, checked the whole thing out and we liked what we saw. We spoke with Ling a number of times and we had a good idea of his vision and methods. So, I suggested him formally to the Board. And I asked them to talk to Ling. Only Ten Have and Olfers did. Davids and Romer never talked to him. After three or four weeks, I asked Ten Have what the status was and he said “oh yeah, no we decided not to go ahead…”. Half of the Board didn’t even speak to him! But they did have a judgement! I don’t accept that from anyone. I want to hear a motivation, based on research and facts. And this is where the shadow dancing started.”

But, they didn’t want Ling, so why would you hold on to him?

“Principle! I’m fine if the Board has reasons not to go with someone, but they didn’t go through the process. They hardly did any homework. It’s about values for me. Not Ling or Pete or John. And then Ten Have said there was a “blemish on Ling”. So, that made me think. As by then, I still had a high regard of Ten Have and Olfers. They are professionals. So I didn’t want egg on my face and I did even more research into Ling. And I couldn’t find a blemish. So I went back to Ten Have and said: “If you allow two board members to liquidate a candidate without a proper investigation, you are not longer trustworthy in my eyes.” That is when I started to gather the troops. We had a battle on our hand.”

And you also came into a Board Meeting with Jonk, Bergkamp and Ling. That is not done…

“Ha! The Board never spoke with Ling, Bergkamp and Jonk about all this. I decided to confront them. I broke into the meeting as they wouldn’t be able to run away or hide. Ten Have did his “good governance spiel” and said we couldn’t do this in a formal meeting. So I said: adjourn the formal meeting and let’s have a round table conversation. What do I care about what we call the meeting? But that is the culture now. Minutes, procedures, constitutions. People hide behind these things and play powergames.”

So what needed to be discussed?

“The “no” against Ling and the so-called “blemishes” and Edgar Davids criticism on the youth management. I thought that was uncalled for. Davids did a practicum with Wim Jonk. Learned from him. Jonk put a lot of hours in Davids and instead of talking to Jonk about his ideas, he would say nothing but go to the Board Meeting to tell them how bad the youth system functions!! Ex team mates!! They spent time in the dressing room together! In trainings camps. I asked Davids, what are you talking about? He said that youth coaches didn’t know what to do…. I was flabbergasted. Our plan is given to all the coaches, on paper. We had numerous sessions with all of them. Ridiculous. So I asked Davids, did you ever discuss it with Dennis or Wim. He said yes. I checked with Jonk. Do you know when Edgar discussed it? Once, walking from the dressing room to the field. That is a one and a half minute walk!! Unbelievable. If you see problems somewhere, you address it! Particularly when you know the people well. You don’t tell on them in a board meeting, with a lawyer and an organisation guru and a tv producer. For crying out loud! And do you know what Davids said to Jonk, in that 1,5 minute talk? That the youth system had spend too much money last year. So I got angry in the meeting and said to Edgar: “What kind of man are you anyway? If you can’t serve the club, all of you, you are better to take your stuff and go home!” I used language I shouldn’t have used, I’m sure….But I couldn’t believe my ears and that was only the start of it…”

And then the Board wanted to announce Marco van Basten… What went wrong there?

“Everyone wanted Marco. I did too. But I was on a holiday and suddenly the Board started to take all sorts of decisions without me in the loop. They did things behind my back. I felt that Marco should have had a conversation with Dennis and Wim before he was installed. Furthermore, Marco wanted to bring his mate Dennis Heijn in as commercial manager and I said…well…let’s wait with that. Let’s follow due process here. And the Board said: “Johan, you have no jurisdiction over finance, marketing and HR” and I said ” I know.” And I think that is all good, I don’t have a lot of expertise there, but I do know that you need to advertise for these roles and you need to make a profile description and follow process. You can’t simply get a guy because his mate wants him! Listen, I love Marco but like anyone, he has blind spots. I have blind spots too. So, I wanted to protect Marco and say to him: not smart. I met this Dennis. He’s a fine bloke. It wasn’t about the person, but the process. Again, the principle. We need to do this right! Now we can do it right, so we should do it right. The whole world was looking, or IS looking at us through a spyglass. We can not screw up… Well….”

Did you get the jurisdiction over the technical aspects of the organisation?

“Yes, I did, but it was verbally done in the member council. There is no contract which confirms this. What do I know. I always do business on a handshake and trust. Expecting that in “my” Ajax I could certainly do this. But Ten Have and Co work with the constitution on their lap and smother you with legalese. Very confusing. But I thought, if the Board thinks yours truly, Bergkamp, Jonk, De Boer and Molenaar can not structure the technical side of Ajax, for God’s sakes, who can!??!?!? Right? That is the question. Not the question whether it was agreed in a contract….”

Did you ever think you could actually work with this Board?

“Listen, I was not part of the decision making process with regards to this Board. I do acknowledge that having an organisational expert, a lawyer, an ex player and a media person is smart. But they think and operate differently. I had that with Rik van den Boog as well. Former IBM manager. Example: I am talking to him for months about restructuring. I bring people to meetings and all ex players and people with brains. So we structure it all on paper, and once we needed him to ratify, he suddenly said: “Ok, well I will think about it….”. I thought I lost it! What?? I have to think about it??? That is when I realised that the officials have the power to stall things. No football brains, but governance power and they can frustrate a lot.”

What did this teach you?

“That we need to have someone in the management chair who agrees with our vision and plans! I don’t need someone who does exactly what I want. Trust me. I don’t like Yes Men. I always get that criticism but it’s not true. I am smarter than that. I want people to listen to me. And then make up their own mind and take responsibility. But if they don’t back my vision, I need to hear why. With arguments. And now I’m dealing with people who block all my ideas because they are my ideas. They don’t argue or reason, they frustrate and block!”

And then someone suddenly announced Louis van Gaal as the new general manager!

“Like a flash of lightning on a clear day. It’s so weird. Michael van Praag ( ex chairman) new about the animosity between Ten Have and me and he asked us to please spend time together to discuss things. And we did. For hours. First the two of us. Then with Keje Molenaar and Margreet Olfers and others. We discussed Marco van Basten, as the potential management candidate. We wanted him to reconsider. We did not ever discuss Louis van Gaal, or Danny Blind for that matter. Keje Molenaar pleaded with the both of us to keep regular contact. But since those meetings I didn’t hear from Ten Have for two weeks. I simply couldn’t reach him. And the next thing I know is, Louis van Gaal is announced as manager! The weird thing is that the membership council had installed a new committee to prepare a presentation for Marco van Basten! They spend days working on that. And a mere couple of hours before this committee was to present this to the members, the news broke! It was clear as crystal that the Board wanted to take control and disrespect and disregarded me and the wishes of the members. A coupe.”

And then you had a court case against your own club. That must have hurt?

“Well, it wasn’t so much against the club, but against a small group of individuals in the club. But we do this for Ajax. For the future. It’s always draining to be in this position and it costs money and time and blabla. But the whole world is watching. I’ve read pieces in the US media about how “ex-players of Ajax want to save the club” etc. We can not give in. I believe we are actually doing something revolutionary. Look at the members at Liverpool and Man United, who they struggled with their owners. I believe at Barcelona there was a time when the chairman election hurt the club. It’s time for the members to stand up and take control. Power to the people. Occupy Ajax, haha.”

During the court case, people uttered criticism on the youth development system. Is that criticism justified?

“Let me start by saying that in my book, the way Ajax does it now is the right way. We have 20 ex top players working with the kids and trust me, no one has to tell them how to play the game. On top of that, we have experts for topics like physio, nutrition, endurance, health, etc… The problem is not that you can’t make mistakes. I’m sure we make mistakes! The trick is to 1) recognise them and 2) deal with them. Do you believe Van Gaal will introduce a system without mistakes or gaps or faults? Wake up! And I do know ex players don’t know everything. We need experts, like you have in a team. Some say, I was the best player of the world. But I wasn’t the best right back in the world! That was Wim Suurbier. And I surely wasn’t the best goal keeper in the world. You need team work to get to results.”

And you had mental coach Derk de Kloet and before you knew it the interim management came in and sacked him?

“Haha, yes. The Board appointed an interim manager with the idea to clean up shop before Van Gaal came in. Very very obvious. This bloke, Sturkenberg or Sturkeman….”

Sturkenboom?

“Him yeah. He was with Ajax for two weeks and then he gave two yellow cards to Wim Jonk. What the F? I went to talk to him. I complimented him about being able to judge people in their work without ever having had a conversation with them. He was passing judgement on De Kloet, Jongkind and Van der Moot at the Toekomst, without ever having been there… Well… This guy walks in and thinks he can determine who is right and who is wrong? Without acknowledging the position of Jonk and Bergkamp. I sent him an email: I walked into your office without any illusions and I walked out of your office without any illusions…”

And then it sort of exploded…

“Well, Ten Have started to say to the press that Ling was involved in some dirty scheme, some bribing thing. They said in the media that I was hard to contact, whereas Ten Have himself hid from us for weeks and weeks. And on top of that the Davids racism thing came up! They sent a letter to the Telegraaf newspaper to say I shouldn’t publish a column in their paper anymore. And no one had the balls to tell me in my face?! Sorry, I can’t accept that.”

Davids appeared to be deeply offended.

“Yeah, well sorry. In the context, it was perfectly normal. I believe Davids was set up against us, by certain forces. Everyone knows I’m not a racist. Athletes never are. I played and worked with all sorts of people and in sports race, colour, religion don’t count. Ask my good friends Frank Rijkaard and Aron Winter. If someone claims I’m a racist, they should be locked up. And I explained this to Edgar. His spot on the Board was there because Frank Rijkaard, mind you, heard that many dark players left Ajax as they didn’t feel a connection with their culture. So, Frank called me and said: in management and the board, who represents the Suriname culture? Remember this crap with De Kabel in the 90s? Under Louis van Gaal, ironically? So we decided to find a board member with cultural links to Suriname. I probably said it a bit harshly, and taken out of context it’s probably questionable. But I don’t need to defend myself. I believe Davids’ reaction afterwards was clear. Someone fed him this and used him.”

In what way?

“I actually don’t blame Davids and Romer a lot. They are good people but they are out of their depth and being used by Ten Have. Ten Have is a shrewd operator, with the gift of the gab. I’ve done my homework. I’ve talked to people close to Romer and they don’t recognise their old mate. And I talked to people in Ten Have’s circle and I don’t mean enemies, his friends!! And his modus operandus is to move into an organisation, find the weakest links and work them with psychological games. If there’s people he doesn’t like, he’ll work them. He’ll feed information to others, he pressures people. He’s a piece of work. And this man is after power at Ajax? Over my dead body!”

So, what if Jonk gets the third yellow card?

“Haha, the shit will hit the fan. If Jonk goes, I think Bergkamp will go too. That will be not so good. It’s obviously an attack on me too. We’ll see what the members and the fans will do. No one will accept this.”

The crucial point in this, is that you don’t believe Ajax needs a general manager for football affairs?

“Correct! We have first team, youth development and scouting. Then there’s all the contractual stuff and all that. This is too much for one man. Any manager with a football background will eventually step on the toes of the head coach. This is classic. You see it all the time and ironically, it happened already with Van Gaal, back then with Koeman! If De Boer, Bergkamp and Jonk take care of business, you only need someone with know how on finance, marketing and HR. This structure was determined long before and suddenly the board wants to shove it aside and put the old structure in?? That is ridiculous. You can’t run a club or any organisation like this. I call that a coupe.”

Frank de Boer won’t be too happy. He’s working well with you and Dennis but he also has ties with Danny Blind and Louis van Gaal?

“That is too bad. This situation will not be solved by being Mr Nice Guy. Frank will need to make a decision. He’s the head coach. He needs to step up. Frank needs to say who he will support: Wim and Dennis or Louis and Danny.”

So, tell us one more time…. How did that situation between you and Van Gaal get so out of hand?

“For me, when he stepped into the Barcelona job and immediately told the world he would revolutionise the youth system, as it wasn’t functioning. That was quite a kick in the teeth, not just to me, but to dozens of people in Barcelona. I was instrumental in that system, with Tonnie Bruins Slot and Van Gaal sent away busloads of players he didn’t like. The next thing you know, he brings busloads of Dutch players and coaches to Camp Nou. That was a massive mistake. Barcelona has culture. Has history, and Van Gaal bulldozered through this like an elephant. If you don’t recognise what that identity needs, you are not fit to be Barcelona’s coach. Pep Guardiola recently said that the current success of Barcelona was seeded in my time. That opinion is worth much more to me than what Mr Van Gaal has to say about it.”

Some people think you and Van Gaal could still work together.

“Forget about it. We are too different. Personality wise but also our football vision. To say it simplistically: I work with the individual and see that as a strength. Van Gaal works with the collective and sees individuality as a weakness.”

So what is the Cruyff vision exactly?

“We look at a dozen characteristics per player. We skip the whole age thing, we look at the players from a development perspective. Some are mature when they’re 14 years old, others need more time. We look at technical skills and physical strength, but also intelligence, communication skills and character. It’s a dynamic system where we develop individual development plans per player. And we use different experts for different things. One player might work every day with a running coach, to improve his speed, while another player doesn’t need that, but the other one needs a lot of video work, to allow him to develop his vision… I don’t give a rats’ ass what kind of results the youth teams get. I don’t want them to win titles. I don’t believe winning youth titles work that well. They get complacent. I want them to struggle, haha. A good left winger needs to play right full back for a spell. To get him to see things in perspective. ”

What makes Dennis and Wim so special for Ajax?

“Haha! That is the key question. For starters, their experience. Secondly, they’re both intelligent and educated lads. In my generation, you didn’t have that. Only Theo van Duivenbode and Keje Molenaar made it big outside of football. But the younger generation is well educated. Another advantage is that they love the club, work their butts off and are very nice guys in the process. And Wim and Dennis are not keen to leave. It’s not a career thing. It’s for life. Wim loves Volendam and doesn’t want to leave and Dennis doesn’t fly. Plus, good people attract good people. With those two, we got Overmars, Stam, Johnny Bosman, Ronald de Boer, etc etc. They are Ajax’ future.”

You never wanted to be in the Board. And here you are…

“I know but it had to be done. And if the members send the Board away, I’ll happily leave and come back as advisor to the lads, if they want me.”

Are you still enjoying all this?

“I do actually. It’s important to keep on smiling. And the objectives are important. It’s not about me or my career, it’s about Ajax. If the current Board mucks it up a lot of football know how will be lost for Ajax and that is a very bad thing. You know what I think is cool? When Van Gaal’s name came out, all the youth coaches went to see a lawyer. Immediately. In the past, people looked at me to start something. But these chaps all took responsibility. I feel very much part of a bigger team. And I think that we need to disappoint the board. If they thought we’d lie down and go away, well… It’s not going to happen! So, Goodnight and Good Luck! No one is going to stop us!”

Thank you, VI. Published in the Xmas number…